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  1. Eldarbong is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 3:23pm


     Style: I request to be banned

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Auburn, IL : Auvenshine's School of Taekwondo - a McDojo?

    Auvenshine's School of Taekwondo http://www.auvtkd.com/
    I learned about it from another thread. To begin, most of the staff are either old and/or freaks. Here's some examples(note American flags in the background of every pic. ...):


    Next, the students. Most the black belts look fat/out of shape and/or under 12 years old.



    I am not trying to be a jerk, but how the **** can you get your BB in TKD when you don't have use of the lower part of your body? That's like giving a BJJ black belt to a quadraplegic.

    Also, why be posting pics of your 7 year old students on the internet anyways? Pedophiles could easily use this to find new victims or as a source of arrousal. Now, to the TKD itself.
    Besides kicking and punching, a good Taekwondo program focuses on many other aspects as well. Our program includes: discipline, character building, self-control, respect, self-esteem, attention span, self-confidence, weight control and fitness
    This is just stupid. So if a dojo doesn't teach me how to be a decent human being it sucks?
    Presently, our students range in age from 4 years old to 75 years old
    If a 4 year old and a 75 yr old in a wheelchair can do the same workout as a physically fit 23 year old, then what is the point? I'm sorry but I can learn moral values and very mildy improve my fitness in other, cheaper, and better ways.
    We also teach those with severe disabilities and there is no charge for their lessons.
    I think this is honorable, and it is a good service to people who often are not included in society. However, if a person cannot perform the necessary tasks to attain some sort of credential (in this case a belt, a black one in particular), then isn't it meaningless? I could get a medical degree plaque from a novelty store and watch ER, it doesn't mean I am a real brain surgeon.
    Last edited by Eldarbong; 5/21/2007 3:25pm at .
  2. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 4:40pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK Eldarbong, I'll answer your questions as you apparently only are concerned with the fighting aspects of the arts. If you were to consider what MA is, then you would understand there is a place for MA for any and everyone.

    ". To begin, most of the staff are either old and/or freaks"

    Tell Bill Wallace he is old. I'd love to see your reaction when he could show you that MOST MA masters are old but still quite skilled. (I'm 53, does that make me old? If not then I only have two old members.) And freaks? How so? Your prejudice is showing.

    "note American flags in the background of every pic. ...):"

    Some of the pics got inverted, and yes, my wife also had the flag on the wall backwards as well. So what? Her not understanding how the American flag is supposed to hang on a wall has nothing to do with her ability to practice and teach MA.

    "Next, the students. Most the black belts look fat/out of shape and/or under 12 years old. "

    You never see heavy people in martial arts. The young man you are talking about can do a dive roll off the floor and throw a spin-back kick as he gets up. He moves like a cat. He can run 5 miles non-stop. His weight is NOT an issue. If it were I would address it more than I do. So long as he can move all that power around, his weight does not hinder him.
    So you can drop the "fat" as he is the only student (BB) I have with that kind of weight.
    Do you know Don Gwinn? I mean personally. He's huge! Does that means he cannot learn TKD, BJJ or any art? If you answer yes, you do not understand the core of martial art philosophy. NONE of my blackbelts are 12. I have a few who are 13 and they have been with me since they were 3. So, what age (after ten years of training) should a child be allowed to advance to black belt? (hint: A poom is a blackbelt under the age of 15, dans are 16 and above) In other words children can and do perform up to black belt levels.
    Bring me ANY 13 kid that is a TKD blackbelt and I assure you mine can keep up.

    "I am not trying to be a jerk, but how the **** can you get your BB in TKD when you don't have use of the lower part of your body? That's like giving a BJJ black belt to a quadraplegic."

    I know you aren't trying to be a jerk. I can see you do that with no effort. There is more to martial arts than the punching and kicking. The guy you see in the wheelchair trained 5 years to earn a black belt. His self-defense skills are tenfold of what they were. So is his health and confidence in everything he does. I have developed a full system for self-defense for those in wheel-chairs. The guy you are looking at can knock you (not you in particular) out, drag you to the ground and apply many hapkido techniques that I've tweeked so that they work for him. He can also teach, coach and be a role model. There are no paper tigers in my blackbelts. That is unless I follow your line of thought that only a 23 year old in good shape can. The martial arts self-defense is only the tip of the iceberg. Let me know when you've bothered to look under the water.

    "Also, why be posting pics of your 7 year old students on the internet anyways? Pedophiles could easily use this to find new victims or as a source of arrousal. Now, to the TKD itself."

    Now you are just plain stupid. I know many schools who post pics of their children students. I give classes about strangers and about on line predators. There are many places on the web that are JUST for children. Are you saying that NO CHILD should have his/her pic anywhere on the web? Get real.

    "This is just stupid. So if a dojo doesn't teach me how to be a decent human being it sucks? "

    Now you sound like an idiot. At the least you are someone who does not understand the "art" in martial art. Ask any instructor if they should not speak about morals. If they don't then they should be leading by example. If they aren't doing that they also do not understand the "art" in martial arts. You clamor on as though all there is to the martial arts is fighting. You could not be more wrong. A martial arts instructor is also by default a counselor as many (adult) students bring their dysfunctional selves to me and I show them how to overcome the obstacles in their lives. I am quite adept at overcoming obstacles.

    Don't you people in here actually know how to debate? So far I've seen little. You guys would be kicked out of one of the forums I moderate in. None the less:

    "If a 4 year old and a 75 yr old in a wheelchair can do the same workout as a physically fit 23 year old, then what is the point? I'm sorry but I can learn moral values and very mildy improve my fitness in other, cheaper, and better ways."
    You are really short-sighted. You are also trying to speak for me. Where did I say that the 75 year old man MUST keep up with the 23 year old? I train every student as an individual. I streamline their training so that they benefit as much as they can. Also, I do not "mildly" improve their health and fitness. I do it ten-fold and then some. My school is a family school. That means grandpas can join. Can they whip a younger adult blackbelts ass? Hell no! But they none-the-less have brought the quality of their lives up to a much higher level. You seem to think that MA is like a cookie cutter where everyone there is trained the same even if they happen to be in their 70's. I don't just teach punching and kicking. I teach the other 90% of MA that you have yet to discover. Martial arts dramatically improves the lives of the practitioners, which is a higher goal in the arts than fighting is.

    "I'm sorry but I can learn moral values and very mildy improve my fitness in other, cheaper, and better ways."

    Then I suggest that you look into that. Especially if all you care to do is "mildly" improve yourself.

    "However, if a person cannot perform the necessary tasks to attain some sort of credential (in this case a belt, a black one in particular), then isn't it meaningless?"

    I'll reinterate what I said. Whether someone is old or disabled I am still able to DRAMATICALLY improve their health and defense ability. Are you so stupid as to think that I teach persons in wheelchairs the same things that I teach those who can walk?
    It is people like you I have had to cut paths through to get more disabled persons involved with the martial arts. Now they may never become the big bad ass you think they should be. But the skills, fitness and overall health improvements they make are nothing short of awe-inspiring. I can't tell you how many times I've shattered others perception about me when they told themselves, "He's in a wheelchair! What in the hell does he know about martial arts."
    It's sad that you think of martial arts as only fighting, and even then up to what you think their standard should be. I am quite adept at fighting from my wheelchair and out of my wheelchair. I teach people in chairs different techniques that come from many art forms. They actually know techniques from more styles than the other able bodied students do since I teach it them to take up the slack.
    Also, they are not buying a blackbelt from a store and calling themselves martial artists. They give years of blood, sweat and tears to reach a level of ability than they ever thought possible. Also, my wheelchaired students work every bit as hard (as they personally can) as any of my students. They actually do so well that they inspire the rest of the students to train harder.
    I'm guessing you are a young man, train hard and are proud of your art. (which you should be). But apparently your instructor forgot to mention there are many paths to the same mountain top just as there are many facets of martial arts besides fighting that are just as essential as fighting is.
  3. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 4:40pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    (double post)
    Last edited by Bill Auvenshine; 5/21/2007 4:42pm at .
  4. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 7:14pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you train in too many arts? Can't everyone learn more than they know? I train (when the opportunity allows for it) in several arts. No, I don't learn the entire curriculum, as I have my base in TKD. Of course every since I broke my spinal cord I seek out grapplers. I am about to go to Kentucky and learn "Aggression Control System" from a Grandmaster Cook. But before I committed to it I had him checked out to make sure he was not ripping off someone else's system. It is not another art but a system of using pressure points to bring someone under control.
    A good boxing course will serve someone in most cases of fighting. But why stop there? I can't imagine limiting myself to any number of arts.
  5. fes_fsa is offline
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    yes....

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 7:25pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it may or may not be--don't rely on just pictures when picking out a school. they may only be putting those images to attract a group that would normally be intimidated by MA (like fat people and old ladies). it doesn't mean that they don't have skilled instructors, or that they can't train you to the best of your ability in that style.

    your best bet would be to visit the school and try a class... and don't rely on environment--rely on whether or not you've learned anything or improved on your technique and don't be afraid to speak up if there's anything specific that you want to learn.

    if after at least trying it, you still think it feels McDojo, then review your experience here and let us know how it turned out.
  6. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 7:48pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Auvenshine
    Can you train in too many arts? .
    i think so. there is a saying that goes something like "Jack of all trades, Master of none." i don't know if it could apply to fighting... but i guess it's good if you want to be just a good all around fighter...
  7. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 9:22pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    excellent points, Mr. Bosco.

    alot of people spread themselves thin by wanting to learn too fast. yeah, they have experience and a basic knowledge of alot of styles... but are only OK. where is the foundation? i find the best of the best excell in ONE style and adapt themself to other styles as they see fit.
  8. Eldarbong is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2007 9:31pm


     Style: I request to be banned

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't want to take TKD, and have never even considered it. Back the topic of the school...
  9. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2007 12:43pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    Let me put it to you like this.

    All point sparring, non contact kicking. Throwing a few hundred kicks on the pads will get you in great shape, I admit. But I doubt it can teach you something Muay Thai cannot. ALso, I very much doubt it'll give you better grappling than BJJ. Between MT and BJJ, you've got a great foundation. I'd stick with that and save your money.
    "All point sparring, non contact kicking"

    I don't know, or at last do not associate myself with schools that do not practise full contact sparring. A lot of Karate practioneer's do point sparring at some tournaments I support. Chuck Norris was a point-sparer, (according to Bill Wallace), yet he can surely defend himself. As little as olympic style sparring reflects actual fighting point-sparring reflects even less.
    And "non-contact kicking"? That may be good for drills to advance technique, timing and distance as well as cardio. It has been my experience that many ITF schools apply those concepts. The ITF (IMO) is the real home of TKD as it was the organization that General Choi, (who I DO consider as the father of TKD) founded. I'm not certain of all their training methods but at some point in some way they have to be making contact. Or someone needs to explain to me how one can learn to defend themselves without ever making contact.

    "But I doubt it can teach you something Muay Thai cannot." Sure it can. Just as Muay Thai can teach you something (technique, stratagey, etc;) that TKD can not. ALL arts have something to offer that the others do not. Many people like to name an art that is the best but the plain truth is that all arts are effective, how well suited the student is to the art would account more so for anyone to say that art is the best. (for them)
  10. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2007 1:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Auvenshine
    Tell Bill Wallace he is old. I'd love to see your reaction when he could show you that MOST MA masters are old but still quite skilled. (I'm 53, does that make me old? If not then I only have two old members.) And freaks? How so? Your prejudice is showing.
    I have to agree that age doesn't necessarily point out anything wrong.

    Some of the pics got inverted, and yes, my wife also had the flag on the wall backwards as well. So what? Her not understanding how the American flag is supposed to hang on a wall has nothing to do with her ability to practice and teach MA.
    Have to also agree that flags aren't a big deal. Alot of people in my BJJ class have flags all over their shoulders. There is a brazilian flag looking thing on the wall. No big deal to pay homage to your country or to the country that the system originates from.

    NONE of my blackbelts are 12. I have a few who are 13 and they have been with me since they were 3. So, what age (after ten years of training) should a child be allowed to advance to black belt? (hint: A poom is a blackbelt under the age of 15, dans are 16 and above) In other words children can and do perform up to black belt levels.
    Bring me ANY 13 kid that is a TKD blackbelt and I assure you mine can keep up.
    The problem here is what a black belt is supposed to represent. I'll get into this later, but at least to the community on this forum, martial arts is fighting, and a rank in martial arts should reflect the ability to fight. If these kids can handle themselves against a reasonable yardstick (ie those of similar age/weight class) in a fully resisting environment, then I guess they deserve their ranks.

    I know you aren't trying to be a jerk. I can see you do that with no effort. There is more to martial arts than the punching and kicking. The guy you see in the wheelchair trained 5 years to earn a black belt. His self-defense skills are tenfold of what they were. So is his health and confidence in everything he does. I have developed a full system for self-defense for those in wheel-chairs. The guy you are looking at can knock you (not you in particular) out, drag you to the ground and apply many hapkido techniques that I've tweeked so that they work for him. He can also teach, coach and be a role model. There are no paper tigers in my blackbelts. That is unless I follow your line of thought that only a 23 year old in good shape can. The martial arts self-defense is only the tip of the iceberg. Let me know when you've bothered to look under the water.
    Again I'll get into this later, but martial arts = fighting. Just as you wouldn't expect the US Army to train blind snipers, a black belt who has lost the use of his lower limbs isn't a question of his dedication, his heart, or his spirit - it is simply just life that he can't fullfill the basic requirements of a black belt, which is to be a decent fighter.

    Now you are just plain stupid. I know many schools who post pics of their children students. I give classes about strangers and about on line predators. There are many places on the web that are JUST for children. Are you saying that NO CHILD should have his/her pic anywhere on the web? Get real.
    Yeah, the OP was being dumb with the pedophile thing, that's a stupid reason to use to justify bullshido or mcdojoness in a school.

    Now you sound like an idiot. At the least you are someone who does not understand the "art" in martial art. Ask any instructor if they should not speak about morals. If they don't then they should be leading by example. If they aren't doing that they also do not understand the "art" in martial arts. You clamor on as though all there is to the martial arts is fighting. You could not be more wrong. A martial arts instructor is also by default a counselor as many (adult) students bring their dysfunctional selves to me and I show them how to overcome the obstacles in their lives. I am quite adept at overcoming obstacles.

    {edited for space and relevance}

    It's sad that you think of martial arts as only fighting, and even then up to what you think their standard should be. I am quite adept at fighting from my wheelchair and out of my wheelchair. I teach people in chairs different techniques that come from many art forms. They actually know techniques from more styles than the other able bodied students do since I teach it them to take up the slack.
    Here's the disconnect. I think there is a big difference between purpose and definition. Purpose would include some of the things you mentioned: health and wellness, personal betterment, having fun, morals, etc. But fighting I wouldn't include in that category. Systemized fighting is the DEFINITION of martial arts. Everything you do in your training, whether it be for conditioning, pad work, one steps, sparring, footwork drills, even the highly debated forms/patterns - they are all tools to building fighting skills.

    When people say things like "martial arts is about self cultivation and improving one's character" - they are not talking about definition. They are talking about purpose. Competition, health/wellness, self improvement/enlightenment, and just having a good time - these are reasons WHY people do martial arts, they do not describe what it IS.

    The thing that separates a martial artist whose purpose is competition from a soccer player or baseball player is that he does it through systemized fighting. The thing that separates one whose purpose is self improvement, enlightenment, or moral betterment from a philosophy major or churchgoer is that he pursues this through systemized fighting. Even the martial artist who does it for fun - the thing that separates him from a 10 year old with an Xbox is that he has fun through learning systemized fighting.

    This definition is also what links all these people together, that they accomplish their purposes through increasing fighting ability - these abilities are tools with which they can achieve their goals.

    The reason why your school has come under scrutiny is only because there seems to be an emphasis on the reasons to do martial arts - an emphasis that goes as far as to dwarf the definition with statements such as "martial arts is more than fighting". While there's nothing wrong with having good purpose and instilling good morals in your students (in fact it's very constructive and responsible of you as a teacher), there is something wrong with downplaying the fighting aspect. If you're not fighting, or learning how to fight, regardless of your intentions or secondary benefits you may incur, you aren't doing martial arts.
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