224681 Bullies, 3617 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 19
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Colm OReilly is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    3

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 8:29am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just reading the Legal threat thread and the question popped into my head: Has anyone ever sued a martial arts instructor for fraud/damages?

    I know in Ireland there are three things necessary for tort (damages)

    1: the defendent owed a duty of care:
    E.g. I will train you how to effectively defend yourself. His duty of care is to train the individual to a hight enough standard so that he may reasonably defend himself

    2: duty of care breached
    "Viper shoots out its tongue" or whatever technique does not work properly

    3: Damaged was caused as a result of that breach
    Little Timmy the student got his assed hospitalised.

    Has this ever been done before? Certainly seems possible
  2. Royal Dragon is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    205

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 8:32am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Doubt it, self defense skills relie just as much on talent and heart of the practitioner as the knowledge of the teacher.

    A good student can learn to fight well from a bad teacher.

    Some sudents are so bad that God himself couldn't teach them no matter how good the system is.

    If someone tried, all the techer has to do is say look, I told him this, but he didn't get it and did his own thing anyway. Not "my" fault.
  3. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 9:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    RD is right.

    There is no garauntee. You can have the best MArtist in the world and he may not be able to teach worth a damn.

    It would be difficult to prove the teacher is at fault for you getting your butt kicked.

    You could get them for FRAUD in where they misrepresent themselves and what they teach.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,115

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 9:33am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Instead of suing instructors for failing to teach someone self defense skills, what about going at it a different way and suing them for false representation of their own skills?

    It seems reasonable to me to expect that an instructor in the martial arts should be able to demonstrate his abilities outside of a controlled environment, and be held up to a standard of integrity when it comes to his background.

    But unfortunately, at the moment nobody has prosecuted such a case as I know of, and so we're stuck with the principle of caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

    And that's the reason why we have this website.
  5. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 11:47am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >It seems reasonable to me to expect that an instructor in the martial arts should be able to demonstrate his abilities outside of a controlled environment, and be held up to a standard of integrity when it comes to his background

    The problem with this, Phrost, is that your instructor can be a kick ass person but that doesn't garuantee that YOU will be one. Knowing and being able to fight doesn't mean you can effective TEACH. They are two different skills.

    Here is something. When you deal with TMA schools the best student and fighter is generally NOT the person who is picked to be the next headmaster!!!! You talk to many TMA headmasters fo a system and they will tell you there were others that were better than them. Hatsumi admits, Yang Ming admits it and others I talk to admit it. It is (should as WAS since everyone and their mother can be a GRANDMASTER now) practice.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. Royal Dragon is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    205

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 12:08pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, a teachers skills could not be tested scientifically either as it would require significant risk to their safety. Then if they are past their prime and loose the fight, they are made to "Appear" like frauds, when in fact they can still train a fighter to top levels even though they can't fight themselves.

    Surely "Old Man" (Heilio) Gracie would get his ass handed to him by his own best fighters, probually even his crappy fighters. But he can still teach the game.
  7. Amir is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    195

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 12:27pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Testing the skill of the teacher, as a fighter says nothing - what happens if the teacher is already elderly, sick etc.
    Besides, how can anyone create a truly objective test and a safe one? Various systems, different skills, danger of practice etc.

    The only thing one can prove is the Genealogy and history. Fraudulant claims may be discovered.
    But some McDojo teachers I read about don't lie outright, they simply give a wrong impression, making the unimportant organization that gave them rank first-rate, etc. These are common marketing strategies used by lots of companies and almost impossible to defeat at court (I don't have legal education - an unprofessional impression).

    Amir
  8. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,115

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 1:08pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But Helio has been tested, and found to be more than legitimate, by not only the actions in his youth, but by his students' success. I don't think that there's anyone that would question either his skills or teaching ability.

    I'm reading a lot of "you can't do this that or the other" but it's not what I want to see.

    What do you think can be done?
  9. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 1:57am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Helio did some good thing but even Helio has been beaten. Going off what Amir said, If I came up to challenge Helio right now I would skulldrag him (I'm even worried about the res of the Gracies)! Heilo will be 90 this year I doubt he can through down like he used to but he maybe able to still teach. Would me beating up a 90 year old man mean he was a fraud for teaching MA when he could no longer fight?

    You CAN sue someone for misrepresentation. That has been done. If the person says he is X belt in an organization and you find out that either he was never in the orginization or it doesn't exist. Or paying a fee for a membership to an orginization that doesn't exist, etc.

    A big problem is that, in the US, there is no standard to which these goes have to be held to teach MA. ANYONE can open a school and teach MA. It is not like a Grade School or College Teacher where they have certian standards, althought they vary state to state now there is a effort to go to a nation wide standard, to adhere to.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 2:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what about testing the level of skill in his other students?
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.