TUF 4 Episode 10/19: Serra vs Carter Official Thread

**Knave** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 2:15am

Greetings.

I am not going to convince anyone of anything. I am just trying to give a little more insight to the whole situation and provide information that you might not know - namely that Marc and Matt did roll.

Are there more firsthand sources for this besides Laimon?

I can say, without having played a day of football in my life, that Terrell Owens is a piece of ****. A worthless prima donna that I mock at every opportunity. Do I have the right to say this as an American? As a football fan? Or do I need to have played professional football to state my opinion?

You can say whatever you want. Laimon can say whatever he wants about whoever he wants. As childish as it sounds, it is in fact a "free country." However, as I would hope everyone here knows, if you are going to talk **** you need to be able to back it up if somebody calls you on it. That's the issue Serra seems to have with him. He talks **** about fighters but never has to back it up. Is it any different from some random jackass in a bar? Nope, but Laimon isn't some random jackass in a bar. He's a professional trainer working for the UFC and is supposed to be there to help these guys.

All the stuff about Royce IMO isn't really that relevant regardless of Royce's jits skill or mma skill at this point and Serra says as much on the show. I don't remember him saying that Royce is the best fighter evar, just that Laimon should give him/the Gracies credit for what they've done for the sport. Maybe he does though, I don't know. All I have to go by is what they put on tv.

In any case, I still find it a little odd that Laimon and Serra both seem to have taken the Hughes vs. Royce fight so seriously. I figured everybody looked at it as a publicity stunt that ultimately just put a huge chunk of change in Royce's pocket.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 2:59am

Think about it. How many people were involved in the production of that show? How many fighters were there? There are some of your first hand accounts. The fact is Marc owned Matt on the mat. That is why Serra doesn't want to go there.

And I am curious - why should Marc have to back up what he says? And how should he back it up? Pistols at 10 paces? Perhaps a thumbwrestling match instead? The fact is that many falsely believe that an MMA match is the pinnacle of manhood, and that an MMA fighter is above reproach. This is false. Marc is supposed to step up everytime he is called on his LOUD opinion? Oh brother. I can only imagine the lawsuits.

Did Serra challenge Laimon to an MMA match? Or did he challenge Marc to step up and fight MMA? It's no great secret that Marc doesn't want to do MMA at all.

So if he hasn't done MMA, and doesn't want to do MMA - than his opinions are worthless? That is what I am getting from a lot of people. Which is strange considering the number of fighters that come to him. An odd ambiguity I would say.

You say he is a professional trainer working for the UFC and is supposed to be helping these guys? What planet are you on? THIS IS REALITY TELEVISION. You are familiar with the format, right? DRAMA FACTOR MUST BE HIGH SO THAT RATINGS STAY UP. Yeah he is a grappling coach but he is also a drama draw. Easily observed by noticing the number of threads on any forum will show that the Laimon drama outnumbers the actual FIGHTS on any episode by a margin of at least 3 to 1.

Also you seem a little ignorant of Marc's history with Royce. If you knew the history you would know why he takes special pleasure in rubbing it in to Serra that Royce lost. Read up. It's fairly common knowledge. And while Marc should probably let go of his grudge, he definately has some reason to gloat.

**Knave** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 3:39am

Greetings.

Think about it. How many people were involved in the production of that show? How many fighters were there? There are some of your first hand accounts.

That's what I'm saying. If Laimon and Serra rolled before that, there should be alot of people to verify it. Can we get some accounts from these other guys? (I'm not asking you specifically btw, just putting the question out there in case anyone is able to dig something up)

why should Marc have to back up what he says?

He doesn't have to, but IMO it makes him look bad if he doesn't back up what he says or doesn't back down.

Did Serra challenge Laimon to an MMA match? Or did he challenge Marc to step up and fight MMA?

More of the second I would think.

So if he hasn't done MMA, and doesn't want to do MMA - than his opinions are worthless? That is what I am getting from a lot of people.

Not at all. His opinions are valuable which is partly why he's brought on as a trainer.

You say he is a professional trainer working for the UFC and is supposed to be helping these guys? What planet are you on? THIS IS REALITY TELEVISION. You are familiar with the format, right? DRAMA FACTOR MUST BE HIGH SO THAT RATINGS STAY UP. Yeah he is a grappling coach but he is also a drama draw.

So..you're saying Laimon is supposed to be some sort of token drama character? I'm having a hard time buying that, especially when they have guys like Shonie on the show. Are GSP and Couture the boring trainers and Laimon is there for the grappling +storyline antics? No way. Laimon is there as a grappling coach and the rest is just random **** that happens when the cameras are rolling. If TUF was really after coaches who can bring skill AND drama, they could surely find guys to bring more drama than GSP and Couture. I can think of a few just sitting here.

Also you seem a little ignorant of Marc's history with Royce. If you knew the history you would know why he takes special pleasure in rubbing it in to Serra that Royce lost. Read up. It's fairly common knowledge. And while Marc should probably let go of his grudge, he definately has some reason to gloat.

I know some bits about Royce/Rorion supposedly not teaching Laimon secret advanced techniques, either as some kind of self-preservation or ignorance of various jits evolutions. That's about it though. I'd love to hear more if there's more to it than that. I do agree that he should probably let it go consider it was ten or so years ago iirc and he only trained with them for a short time anyway, right?

Anyway, as far as the whole backing up what he says thing and the difference between opinions and talking **** etc...

This is what I'd call stating an opinion on the Royce vs. Hughes fight:
"I don't think Royce was in good enough shape to take on Hughes and his game hasn't evolved enough for him to keep up with alot of modern mma fighters."

Nothing wrong with that. This is **** talking:
"Royce is dumb bitch who got left behind by this sport a long time ago. I'm so glad Matt Hughes beat the **** out of his worthless noobar retarded ass."

**Fighting Cephalopod** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 3:52am

Originally Posted by pauli

how big is laimon? every shot of him is either "i am a bump on a log in the corner of the mats," or "i tower over your puny cameraman" in one of the warmup rooms with no reference.

Laimon came by our gym to hang out for a while after the GQ last year where Jason Miller lost (narrowly) to Saulo, and he was a little over 200 then - I remember because he weighed himself on our digital scale and complained about how fat he was getting.

He was very cool to us while he was here, but I've also seen him do things at tournaments that I would consider the acts of someone with serious emotional problems - I don't mean just yelling at people, I mean making weird threats sotto voce to referees and organizers and going into tantrums over certain things. I'm not sure how much of that is honest reaction, and how much is him doing things specifically to put emotional pressure on refs and promoters to get his way for himself and his team. Either way, it makes it easy to see how people might have a negative opinion of him.

My coach has competed against Laimon, and lost - any time you ask him about him, he'll tell you that he's an amazing grappler, enormously technical, but he doesn't have a high opinion of his personality.

My opinion, which is admittedly formed from a distance, is that Laimon is an awesome guy to his own team, and his friends, but to people that aren't his team or his friends he's as big an asshole as he A) needs to be to get what he wants/what's good for his team, B) wants to be.
Which means opinions of him are always going to be very polarized.

Personally, I think that a lot of the hate directed at him on message boards is more from people who get all butt-hurt about his outspoken criticism of the Gracies than anyone who has actual legitimate gripes with him. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of people who /do/ have legit gripes at his behavior. Of course, all Laimon haters will claim they're the latter, and all Laimon supporters will claim that all the haters are the former. The truth is probably in the middle.

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 10:43am

I will say that as far as the "myth" of Gracie jiu-jitsu as it's put (to my knowledge meaning that Jiu-jitsu is really all you need to win in fights) is only somewhat present at Matt's gym. I don't know any fighter, student or instructor there that thinks that BJJ/GJJ is the only thing you need to win in a street fight or MMA, but there definately is the bias -as I'd expect- that BJJ is the solid base you need, and with just a basic grasp of striking and covering you'd be able to take anyone down to the mat and then dominate them there on the ground submission-wise.

As for Laimon dominating Matt rolling, I'm surprised that commentary of other fighters remarking on that wasn't shown. But perhaps Dana and the UFC mafia felt that having their potential champ appear like he was bitched on the mat by someone who's not even training to fight would be bad for the shows appearance, despite how anyone who knows **** about MMA knows that winning in a submission match is much different than an all out MMA bout.

And Yrkoon, Matt was upset with Laimon for talking **** about MMA fighters despite not getting in the ring and experiencing what they go through himself. It's alot easier to play armchair quarterback than to get in the field and see what it's like. This is why nearly all football coaches are ex-players. They know the game inside and out. This is not to knock Laimon's knowledge, and in fact I am as guilty as him in regards to knocking fighters (listen to me pontificate from the ivory towers of MMA knowledge while watching a UFC PPV).

I suppose in the end it's more Laimon's attitude and personality rather than what he was actually saying that got to Matt. But hey that's just conjecture and assumptions on my part.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 11:49am

Originally Posted by Yrkoon9

Please take note. I said Royce disciple not student. Yes, Serra is Renzo's black belt. But Serra still rides on Royce's nuts and buys into the myth. That is what I meant by disciple - someone who still thinks Royce is one the greatest MMA fighters today eva.

I seriously doubts that Serra things Royce is the greatest MMA fighter today. He respects him and the Gracies for what they have done but I don't think he's that delusional.

If you listen to what Marc says about Royce you might know more than is shown in a carefully editted reality TV series. Marc thinks Royce's jiu jitsu sucks. He has said this many times over. He says that Royce refuses to get with the times and continues to use an archaic style of jiu jitsu, refuses to learn how to strike, and quite simply cannot compete in an environment where people actually know the submission game.

Hell I was in a Royce school and we said that over and over again. When the Hughes fight was coming up everyone at the school said that Royce was going to lose because he hasn't changed with the time. Thats nothing new and I think Serra feels the same way.

And everything he says is true. He just says it in the wrong way and at the wrong time.

And that the thing. Its not what you say its HOW you say it. You can say something that is totally true but the way you say it can piss pple off, prime example BULLSHIDO.com.:icon_mrgr

[/quote]Believe what you want to believe. I am not going to convince anyone of anything. I am just trying to give a little more insight to the whole situation and provide information that you might not know - namely that Marc and Matt did roll. And Marc crushed him. Hughes knew this and wanted to see it escalate.[/QUOTE]
I really don't give a rats ass about that. I will say that I have rolled with guys that repeatedly tapped me in grappling but I pwned them in MMA so I wouldn't count Serra out in that enviorment against Marc. But as for Hughes escalating things well I'm all for that makes for good internet drama. One of the reasons I read UG. Its a guilty pleasure.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 2:25pm

whatever happened to "Jitsuman" Wasn't he a Serra Student or Serra's brother or something like that?

**Dagon Akujin** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 6:19pm

Originally Posted by Yrkoon9

Yes, Serra is Renzo's black belt. But Serra still rides on Royce's nuts and buys into the myth. That is what I meant by disciple - someone who still thinks Royce is one the greatest MMA fighters today eva.

Also you seem a little ignorant of Marc's history with Royce. If you knew the history you would know why he takes special pleasure in rubbing it in to Serra that Royce lost. Read up. It's fairly common knowledge. And while Marc should probably let go of his grudge, he definately has some reason to gloat.

I seem to remember Serra saying that he didn't think Royce was going to win, so I don't think I can buy into the "nutrider/myth" thing that you're saying.

Laimon making fun of Royce =/= "I told you so."
Laimon making fun of Royce =/= "HA HA! You were wrong and I was right."
Laimon making fun of Royce == "I'm a dick who gives no respect to anyone."

That's all,
Dagon

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 7:45pm

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

whatever happened to "Jitsuman" Wasn't he a Serra Student or Serra's brother or something like that?

I was wondering that myself. Last I heard from him was when I told him I trained at his school, and wanted to roll with him sometime. He never responded to the best of my knowledge, and seemed to drop off the forums. Maybe he thought I was spying on him or something???

**AAAhmed46** · Posted On: 10/22/2006 8:52pm

Well saying "Royce should have retired after his second shamrock fight" is kind of stupid.

The man gave another man bigger then him a hard ass time and fights to a draw.