Judo throws for no-gi / mma from the clinch

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/15/2006 11:55pm

While watching Franklin get owned by Silva's clinch last night I was thinking that a good defense for that situation might have been a slightly modified Taiotoshi where if the guys has clinched you hard you grab thier right wrist (just choosing sides arbitrarily) with your left hand just above the glove and bring your right arm over and across the attackers left arm as an elbow strike that goes through and under their left arm setting up the taiotoshi.

I would think the benefits are that not only would you be breaking their clinch and maybe getting a strike in (although even if you miss your still breaking the clinch) but that when you turn to throw you have your elbow on the inside to absorb and knees coming up.

Anyways just a though, next take down class I am going to try this from the clinch.

Has anyone else tried this or other Judo style throws from a Greco or MT clinch?

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 10/16/2006 12:22am

I can't tell you for sure, since my backup hard drive with all my bjj instructionals died last week, but I'm fairly certain that Karo's Judo for MMA has . . . well let's just say a lot of them, and I believe it answers your question.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/16/2006 8:07am

Thanks, going to see if I can order it somewhere. I only brought it up here because I thought some people on the board may have had direct experience with transitioning Judo to no-gi /mma and was curious as to their techniques and thought DHS was the place to discuss serious grappling techniques.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 10/16/2006 8:42am

Incidentaly at my BJJ class there are several BB judokas, and there is always a review of throws. However, they are mostly leg trips and reaps (kosoto/kouchi/ouchi gari) from the clinch or a neck grab. Though these have been gi classes, the throws have been done mostly from under/over hooks with little to no gi grabbing.

I haven't been to the no-gi classes, but I'll ask and see what they are doing on that area.

BTW, get Karo's videos if you can, at least the DVDs on uchi mata and ouchi or osoto gari. They are c000000l!!!!.

**mmafreak422** · Posted On: 10/16/2006 11:12am

Just watched the fight again, and I don't think that Rich would have been able to pull off a judo throw from the position he was in. Silva was manhandling him like a little girl and was controlling his head waaay too easily. If Rich got his head lose, ripped one of his arms free, and took a high collar/neck grip, maybe. He has showed that he has a mediocre suplex when he gets the underhooks, but again I just don't see it happening in the position he was in against Silva.

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 9:34am

taio toshi is a hand throw, and is very gi relient. And since you cant get a good strong grip without the gi I think it would be a terrible throw to use in mma, your turning your back for an elbow grip and a lapel grip with your forarm pushed against the chest. I really dont understand the change is gripping your suggestting for this throw and grabbing the wrist for this threw and maybe an under hook taio toshi wouldnt be the throw I'd use.

For mma judo just watch karo or Ed herman both have good hari ogoshi and is a good throw from the clich that doesnt need the gi.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 11:59am

My thoughts are that for an undehook Tai otoshi from a clinch that you could bring the arm doing the under hooking across and over the clinching arms as a strike and distractor.

As far as turning your back, if you get the under hook in I would thinkk you tie the guy up enough that he can't generate and power to a strike and if they're trying to strike instead of stopping the throw then you have a better chance of throwing them.

Even if you don't pull of the throw the underhooking and twisting of the body would break the MT clinch and get you out of that spot, which would have been better for Franklin than having his nose pushed to the side.

Also from the MT clinch the clincher is moving back to create space for the knee strikes which I think would leave room to get under and pull them forward.

**babo78** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 12:45pm

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

My thoughts are that for an undehook Tai otoshi from a clinch that you could bring the arm doing the under hooking across and over the clinching arms as a strike and distractor.

As far as turning your back, if you get the under hook in I would thinkk you tie the guy up enough that he can't generate and power to a strike and if they're trying to strike instead of stopping the throw then you have a better chance of throwing them.

Even if you don't pull of the throw the underhooking and twisting of the body would break the MT clinch and get you out of that spot, which would have been better for Franklin than having his nose pushed to the side.

Also from the MT clinch the clincher is moving back to create space for the knee strikes which I think would leave room to get under and pull them forward.

Are you talking about while being MT clinched and you trying breakout & turn that into takedown clinch and then perform a takedown? If so, that's usually tough. Most of time, people get tired and end up 'hugging' but if fresh...diff story.

MT clinch and takedown clinch is different so soon as you and your opponent get close enough for clinch. You will be fighting for position.

For example, if you want to MT clinch and throw knees. You are going to try to get that classic MT position of hands behind head, forearm to collar bone/shoulder, to control the head and create bit of hunch room for generate power for knees. While if your opponent is going for takedown clinch, he or she would come in alot closer and try to 'hug' you and pummel for an underhook or two.

However, once you already end up in MT clinch, it's quite difficult to change it up to takedown clinch especially if person who got you in MT clinch is good with it and intend to keep throwing knees while moving you around side to side, etc.

Same for opposite story. If you already have an underhook or two in takedown clinch, it's hard to create enough space and head control to throw some serious knees.

But as for tai otoshi in no-gi. I'd recommend other throws instead of tai otoshi from that position (one arm is underhooked, other arm/wrist is gripped) like uchi-mata makikomi or even simple hip throw. The positioning of upper body is same for those techniques but they are higher % of sucess takedown techniques than tai otoshi in no-gi. Especially once people start sweating and get slippery/greasy.

**El Neko** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 2:58pm

Originally Posted by Bizzaro Root

taio toshi is a hand throw, and is very gi relient. And since you cant get a good strong grip without the gi I think it would be a terrible throw to use in mma, your turning your back for an elbow grip and a lapel grip with your forarm pushed against the chest. I really dont understand the change is gripping your suggestting for this throw and grabbing the wrist for this threw and maybe an under hook taio toshi wouldnt be the throw I'd use.

actually this is the traditional way to do it with the normal grip, however the right hand could be underhook and rith grabbing the left wrist and it would still work

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 3:56pm

Originally Posted by Neko687

actually this is the traditional way to do it with the normal grip, however the right hand could be underhook and rith grabbing the left wrist and it would still work

I know thats the traditional grips but as Isaid before the taio toshi is a hand throw and theres no reaping or hip involved, its totally reliant on your grip and in my opinion would be a terrible throw to try in a mma fight were your opponent is slippery. I totally agree with babo78 there are far more powerfull throws that arent as grip reliant as taio toshi is, specifically hari and uchi are way better and far more powerful the taio is.