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  1. RoninPimp is offline
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    BJJ Black Belt

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2006 2:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I too await an expert's opinion. I've read that thrusting with a 2 handed rigid weapon is too dangerous for training. A light weight escrima stick? I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???
  2. Sir Ocelot is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2006 3:46pm


     Style: WMA (various)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RoninPimp
    I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???
    Not an ARMA guy, but here's my WMA perspective:

    First, thrusting with staves was very definitely done, sometimes even emphasized, and I can dig up plenty of references to that effect. Here's an example summarizing how to fight staff against sword:

    Now for the vantage of the short staff against the sword and buckler, sword & target, two handed sword, single sword, sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard, there is no great question to be in any of these weapons.

    Whensoever any blow or thrust shall be strongly made with the staff, they are ever in false place, in the carriage of the wards, for if at any of these six weapons he carries his ward high & strong for his head, as of necessity he must carry it very high, otherwise it will be too weak to defend a blow being strongly made at the head, then will his space be too wide, in due time to break the thrust from his body.

    Again, if he carries his ward lower, thereby to be in equal space for readiness to break both blow & thrust, then in that place his ward is too low, and too weak to defend the blow of the staff: for the blow being strongly made at the head upon that ward, will beat down the ward and his head together, and put him in great danger of his life.

    And here is to be noted, that if he fights well, the staff man strikes but at the head, and thrusts presently under at the body. And if a blow is first made, a thrust follows, and if a thrust is first made, a blow follows, and in doing of any of them, the one breeds the other.

    -- George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence (1599)

    See that bit that says "beat down the ward and his head together"? That leads into the second point: whether with blow or thrust, full-weight staves are just fucking scary. Silver's talking about a staff 8-9 feet long, which is especially scary, but even with a 5-6 foot staff it's easy to generate enough power to crack a skull.

    Third: blows can hit harder, but a strong thrust has enough power to break someone's face or ribs. Take a full-weight hardwood staff and, from an on guard position, practice thrusting single-handed from the rear hand at a hard wall you don't care about marking up or at a tree you don't like. (I say do this single-handed because you get the longest reach and travel with this method, so it actually hits harder than most two-handed thrusts.) Or just take my word for it when I say that this is something I hope I never get hit by.

    Fourth: training weapons of rattan or the like are going to be lighter than this and somewhat flexible, but if they're straight and get hit exactly on end, they still don't flex much, if at all. The heavier the weapon is, the worse this problem gets. There's also the issue of what'll happen if the weapon breaks; with hardwood particularly, that can unexpectedly turn it into a spear.
  3. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2006 8:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RoninPimp
    I too await an expert's opinion. I've read that thrusting with a 2 handed rigid weapon is too dangerous for training. A light weight escrima stick? I don't know. Where are the ARMA guys???
    Talked to guy who has been a Dog Brother for over 8 years. Thrusts with staves (sp) are allowed. (I just couldn't remember from what I have seen). Didn't bother to ask regarding effectivness but based upon what I have trained it would seem dangerous to try (leaves you open) which goes back to my earlier post about taking the thrust over a full fledged swing anyday.

    In terms of sticks I was semi-baiting you for a response and for that I apologize. We do train to thrust with sticks however it is mostly done off an entry to the clinch. i.e. roof block with the shoulder rotating around for an upward thrust to the mid section. (Thrust would be aimed for the neck region in a actual street altercation using a knife or blunt object). Does it hurt? Very much so in this situation and if your lucky is a fight ender. I believe the technique is taken from Illustrisimo if I remember correctly. Poi could prob correct me if I'm wrong.

    That addresses the DBMA portion of the original question. In regards to ARMA and two handed swords etc. I claim complete and total ignorance. I imagine they hurt a lot more than a rattan staff. (Although, in the gathering guys fight with big staffs!)

    edit - if the staff were to splinter or break I'm sure the fight would be stopped until the weapons could be replaced or the guys wouldn't use the broken end. The idea is not to kill each other.

    :viking:
    Last edited by Red Elvis; 10/18/2006 8:44pm at .
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  4. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2006 9:34pm

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thrusts dont have any give with remotely realistically stiff wooden weapons and can easily wind up hitting a lot harder then one intends to (you never know when your opponent will come forward and eat it)

    As someone said above thrusts were common in staff work in WMA, being a highly favored attack. While I dont do much staff sparring I can certainly attest to the power and effectiveness of a solid thrust to the opponents face. Saying that you'll trade taking a thrust to land a blow is like saying you'll trade eating a stiff jab to land your right. Sounds good in theory but the jab/thrust gets there a lot quicker and will likely ruin your swing or at least take almost all the power out of it.
  5. poidog is offline
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    Competition Team Tag...yes?

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2006 1:42am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, DBMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    We do train to thrust with sticks however it is mostly done off an entry to the clinch. i.e. roof block with the shoulder rotating around for an upward thrust to the mid section. (Thrust would be aimed for the neck region in a actual street altercation using a knife or blunt object). Does it hurt? Very much so in this situation and if your lucky is a fight ender. I believe the technique is taken from Illustrisimo if I remember correctly. Poi could prob correct me if I'm wrong.
    If we're talking about the same one, it's actually from Pekiti Tirsia.
    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa
  6. Cuchulain82 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2006 9:17am


     Style: Muay Thai, Kali, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    PT Kali v. DBMA question

    Quote Originally Posted by poidog
    If we're talking about the same one, it's actually from Pekiti Tirsia.
    There is a lot of thrusting in pekiti tirsia, but I thought that DBMA guys generally stayed away from it because, well, a stick is a stick, not a sword, knife, etc. Is that right?
  7. Sir Ocelot is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2006 1:07pm


     Style: WMA (various)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    edit - if the staff were to splinter or break I'm sure the fight would be stopped until the weapons could be replaced or the guys wouldn't use the broken end. The idea is not to kill each other.
    Oh, no doubt; the main risk is that the break happens in the middle of an action and the person holding it doesn't realize what's happened in time to stop what he's doing. Such things have happened in related contexts; an olympic champion foil fencer died that way. Definitely not an everyday thing, but a possibility to be aware of.
  8. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2006 2:17am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain82
    There is a lot of thrusting in pekiti tirsia, but I thought that DBMA guys generally stayed away from it because, well, a stick is a stick, not a sword, knife, etc. Is that right?

    More accurately, mark trained the stick primarily as a stick, not a sword etc. Thrusts with a very stable weapon like a staff or mock spear will tend to hurt a lot more than the single handed thrusts, which i find slide off of people a bit more. Also, the staff video was meant to be broadly transferable, and not every two-handed impact weapon will be viable for thrusting. Ultimately, i think it just boils down to mark denny having learned the weapon primarily as a staff and not a spear(in pekiti for example, the assumption wil tend to be that of a spear with a slashing edge at the end)
  9. Whiskey Tango is offline
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    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2006 11:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ,MT,other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this Question for real?

    1) Take a staff and thrust it at your heavy bag (hey Mr. heavy bag how did that feel?) notice only limited force and the quiteness of our friend the bag, you may also notice the limited range of attack and if you really lay into it your way off balance, and it's only a staff not a spear so it has limited power in a thrusting capacity as Red Elvis already pointed out.

    2) now stand back and take a good old two handed baseball bat type swing ( oh **** is that Mr. heavy bag crying like a little bitch) and what was that hella smacking sound? wow I have extended range, repititive strikes , uber fu*kin power and I'm not off balance...BINGO schools out.

    If you ever get the chance watch Lonley Dog staff fighting, I have had the priveledge both watching him fight and doing a little backyard seminar with him on his stick and staff fighting tacics, lots of swinging not a whole hell of a lot of poking.

    Just my .02
  10. Sir Ocelot is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2006 1:31pm


     Style: WMA (various)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Dave
    Is this Question for real?
    Is your answer?

    1) Take a staff and thrust it at your heavy bag (hey Mr. heavy bag how did that feel?) notice only limited force and the quiteness of our friend the bag
    Just did, and didn't. What I did notice was that when I hit cleanly, the bag bounces back about as much as when I hit it with my equivalent straight punch (falling-step straight for my two-handed thrust, shoulder-whirl straight for the thrust single). Not that bounceback is a great measure of anything anyway; I can move the bag farther with a push than a punch. Extended staff thrusts are bad at pushing, but make a nice dent in the bag on impact. They also focus their force into a smaller impact area than a punch or swing does.


    you may also notice the limited range of attack
    The range is the same as with a swing. A thrust doesn't have the ability to come in at the angles a swing can, of course.


    and if you really lay into it your way off balance
    Cf. "haymaker". (In other words: don't do that.)


    and it's only a staff not a spear so it has limited power in a thrusting capacity as Red Elvis already pointed out.
    "Limited" =/= "little". If it has enough to compare with or beat a strong punch, it has enough to be useful.
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