Judo throws for no-gi / mma from the clinch

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/17/2006 4:29pm

I was only talking of Tai otoshi from one instance - that of being clinched like Franklin was.

Where he couldn't get out and Silva's reach and size difference made an Uchi matta or hari ogoshi unattainable from that particular position.

Also in CSW you learn to use the grip right above the wrist where the mma glove ends for leverage which is why I think you could substitute it for a gi hold for certain throws

**thetza** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 3:18am

1) I wouldn't call tai-otoshi a hand throw.... in fact I wouldn't call anything a hand throw. Like all throws its an all-body throw.
2) Tai-otoshi does however require spacing between you and the opponent. Thus it would not work from a clinch. Uchimata's and hip throws are a different story though.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 6:26am

From a Greco style clinch where the other person is trying to get an underhook to throw then no there's not enough space for tai otoshi, however Silva and Franklin fight Silva had kept a lot of space and distance from Franklin to throw kness which looked to provide the distance.

**babo78** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 6:44am

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

From a Greco style clinch where the other person is trying to get an underhook to throw then no there's not enough space for tai otoshi, however Silva and Franklin fight Silva had kept a lot of space and distance from Franklin to throw kness which looked to provide the distance.

If you and your opponent is about same skill in clinch, I think you pull off what you described earlier.

But in case of Silva and Franklin...unless Franklin's takedown game was good as Silva's MT clinch game I don't think he could've performed a takedown. I thought he should've tried to pull guard...then again. With Silva's experience, I don't think pulling guard would've worked either. I think Franklin was just f--ked.

If it's similar skill, worst come to worst. I think there was enough space to pull guard. Or you can start walking backward and if they start pushing, you can try tomoe nage and if fail (most of time it does in no-gi), pull guard hahaha. Anything to get out of MT clinch like that right?

**babo78** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 6:51am

Originally Posted by Neko687

actually this is the traditional way to do it with the normal grip, however the right hand could be underhook and rith grabbing the left wrist and it would still work

It would work but it's all about success rate and feasbility right? Tai otoshi is low % takedown (in no-gi MMA format) generally. Especially after some sweats been dripping, forget it...grip on wrist is super hard and even with one underhook, still not that reliable.

And you def. don't work to fumble technique like this with wrist grip while your back is turning. Because if you do it poorly, it's easy for your opponent to slip out of that wrist grip and put it around your neck and pull RNC. If it's really poorly done, they can even get the hooks in. Wrist grip is not that good for takedown, arm grip is. But if you end up with an underhook and an armgrip...there's higher % takedown you can do.

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 12:09pm

Originally Posted by thetza

1) I wouldn't call tai-otoshi a hand throw.... in fact I wouldn't call anything a hand throw. Like all throws its an all-body throw.
2) Tai-otoshi does however require spacing between you and the opponent. Thus it would not work from a clinch. Uchimata's and hip throws are a different story though.

straight from the kudokan since you dont believe me or werent taught the difference between throws in judo.

"From this position very little strength or energy is required for tori to complete the throw. Taiotoshi is classified by the Kodokan as a hand throw and it is easy to see how the hands pull uke off balance. Additional power is brought to the kuzushi during the pivoting action (taisabaki) as tori gets into position for the throw."

source-- "The Study of Kuzushi" is copyright © 2000 by Neil Ohlenkamp, JudoInfo.com, California, USA. All rights reserved. Published August 1, 2000. Reproduced with permission.

I'm not saying its a useless throw just very low percentage even with a gi on. As babo said its a dangerrous throw if you lose your grip its rnc or atleast a bad scrample for you. Besides I'm a little biased towards haraiogshi and uchimata

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 12:19pm

(Tachiwaza) of Hand Tech-niques (Tewaza)--Ukiotoshi--Seoinage--Taiotoshi--
Seoiotoshi--Kataguruma--Obiotoshi--Sotomakikomi--
Uchimakikomi 57

(Tachiwaza) of Loin or Waist Techniques (Koshiwaza) -- Ukigoshi-- Haraigoshl--
Tsurikomigoshi-- Hane goshi-- Ogoshi-- Ushiro goshi-- 68

(Tachiwaza) of Foot and Leg Techniques (Ashiwaza)--Hizaguruma--Uchimata
--Osotogari--Ouchigari--Ashiguruma--Osoto-otoshi--
Osotoguruma-- Yama-arashi--Ashiharai--Okuri-Ashi-
Harai-- Deashi-Harai--Tsurikomi-Ashi--Sasae-Tsuri-
komi-Ashi--Kosotogari--Kouchigari--Harai--Tsurikomi-
Ashi 80

Throws effected from a lying Position
(Sutemiwaza)--Masutemiwaza : Tomoenage--Uranage
--Sumigaeshi--Yokosutemiwaza: Ukiwaza--Yokogake
--Yokoguruma--Yoko-otoshi--Yokowakare--Tani-
otoshi

just so youll know next time.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 1:41pm

Originally Posted by Bizzaro Root

straight from the kudokan since you dont believe me or werent taught the difference between throws in judo.

"From this position very little strength or energy is required for tori to complete the throw. Taiotoshi is classified by the Kodokan as a hand throw and it is easy to see how the hands pull uke off balance. Additional power is brought to the kuzushi during the pivoting action (taisabaki) as tori gets into position for the throw."

source-- "The Study of Kuzushi" is copyright © 2000 by Neil Ohlenkamp, JudoInfo.com, California, USA. All rights reserved. Published August 1, 2000. Reproduced with permission.

I'm not saying its a useless throw just very low percentage even with a gi on. As babo said its a dangerrous throw if you lose your grip its rnc or atleast a bad scrample for you. Besides I'm a little biased towards haraiogshi and uchimata

On a side note from the gi I always do this throw from the underhook position rather than grab the guy's lapel as I can always drop down to my knees and try to turn it into a shoulder / sacrifice throw.

As far as using the wrist above the glove for the grip position with sweaty mma guys I believe thats what Karo does.

Not saying I coould do it just that

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 2:08pm

karo never has done the taio that ive seen, his throws that he regularly pulls off are saionage(hand throw), uchimata, haraiogoshi that last 2 on a regular basis just watch his last fight with sanchez.

EDIT:: ok i rewatched some karo and he does use the wrist grab at the glove but his only hand throws are uchimakikomi(spelling) and drop saiwai but I stand firm on the no taiotoshi. On his Hip and reap throws he uses the underhook and just gets such good kazushi and taisabaki that he almost always hit them and doesnt even need to grab the arm at the wrist to get that finally twisting motion to finish a throw.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 3:55pm

Originally Posted by Bizzaro Root

karo never has done the taio that ive seen, his throws that he regularly pulls off are saionage(hand throw), uchimata, haraiogoshi that last 2 on a regular basis just watch his last fight with sanchez.

EDIT:: ok i rewatched some karo and he does use the wrist grab at the glove but his only hand throws are uchimakikomi(spelling) and drop saiwai but I stand firm on the no taiotoshi. On his Hip and reap throws he uses the underhook and just gets such good kazushi and taisabaki that he almost always hit them and doesnt even need to grab the arm at the wrist to get that finally twisting motion to finish a throw.

No I don't think Karo or anyone has done it, And I wouldn't recommend it for out of the blue. I was thinking that in that particular case (Franklin vs Silve) from a tight MT clinch in which you have space because the striker is creating room to deliver knees, that the motion of getting the under hook in would be good for breaking the clinch and breaking their Kazushi. However the more I think about it, if you get a tight Karo type under hook in and broke your opponents balance you might as well drop to the ground and go for the total shoulder throw.