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  1. meng_mao is offline
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    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 9:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    I know they have. My point isn't trying to validate what passes for point sparring in most mcdojos or competitions.

    The point I am trying to make is that point sparring should be the first video not the second. And that point sparring as done in the first video has some merit where as point sparring in the second video has none.
    language is in flux. We have to try to speak so people understand us.
    When I say car, I hope you think of a modern car, and not a light carriage pulled by one horse.

    I think you'll have to live with point sparring meaning tippy-tap, and come up with another term for the older way, instead of refering to it as good point sparring.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

    "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White
  2. blue-dragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 10:04pm


     Style: Boxing and Moo Duk Kwan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Point sparring is for the "Karate Kid" and if there isn't any other kind of sparring to be done.

    "the onlything promised in life is death, everything else is achievement"
  3. sidran is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 10:23pm


     Style: Kung fu, Jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    I don't do, and am not terribly interested in doing single point sparring, however I think it's original intention in Karate was to provide a safe way to do full/hard contact sparring. That you would fight until the first person landed a real solid hard strike and then stop and then continue thus making it a bit safer

    Here's an example of what it should look like
    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...8522661&q=goju

    some nice knock downs starting around the 1.30 minute mark

    As was posted in another thread here is what point sparring has generally become.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4pTNRL2B00

    Over protected and hyped up tag.
    Interesting. I haven't seen point sparring done as it is in the first clip before. I think I can see how it could be valuable to use this format, maybe as a stepping stone to more continuous sparring later as it doesn't seem to unrealistically exagerrate the practicality of your strikes (they give a point after a knock down or the first good hit, not just a tap). The guys in that clip seemed pretty capable to me.

    The second one I've seen before and is the sad state that the term "point sparring" tends to refer to now. It's crap.
  4. sidran is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 10:30pm


     Style: Kung fu, Jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    I find it helps your distancing, timing and footwork in general. You have to stay out of range, get in and hit the guy first; all valuable skills. If you leave your hands down or have any other glaring openings the other guy will usually hit you anyway. I was always getting caught flat-footed in kickboxing and getting lit up because I couldn't control angles and distance, but after taking some time to spar in the Shotokan classes at our school I found my kickboxing was much improved when I went back.
    These qualities are all well and good but point sparring can give you some bad habits which I've noticed when I was doing it way back when. For example, I did no contact (ugh...) point sparring for probably about half a year (guessing) and one class I found myself doing something that was not good. I'd be in a match and we'd be exchanging strikes and blocks and whatnot and I would get one in that I would percieve was in and that I'd get a point for. I just sort of stopped and looked over waiting for Sensei to call it, but he didn't (apparently I was too far out of range or something). That would be a very bad thing to happen in a real fight (stop expecting the other to stop for whatever reason, knockout, loss of will to fight, etc). After bad habits like these get dead-set, they can be hard to train out. There are tradeoffs to this kind of sparring, I think if it's done right (more like the first clip) and balanced with other types of training and sparring, it may be useful, to a degree. But, most good fighters probably didn't need it to become good, so I don't really think it's necessary.
  5. prob is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 4:07am


     Style: KARATE/KICK BOXING

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stopping when you think you have scored a point is a bad habit in point fighting, and one that a good Instructor will get you to lose.
    I teach my students to only stop when the Refferee says ,not when they think they have scored a point.
  6. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    An American Hero!

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 4:19am

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     TryKickboxingNow.com - Free Internet Marketing for Kickboxing Programs! Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Point fighting is still a horrible training method considering you could just be kickboxing.

    As a fun sport or training supllement, fine. As fighting, ummm might as well be a chunner.
  7. Elky is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 7:58am


     Style: Shotokan Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    I don't do, and am not terribly interested in doing single point sparring, however I think it's original intention in Karate was to provide a safe way to do full/hard contact sparring. That you would fight until the first person landed a real solid hard strike and then stop and then continue thus making it a bit safer

    Here's an example of what it should look like
    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...8522661&q=goju

    some nice knock downs starting around the 1.30 minute mark

    As was posted in another thread here is what point sparring has generally become.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4pTNRL2B00

    Over protected and hyped up tag.
    The first vid appeared to be WKF rules kumite. This isn't unusual in the slightest, it's the current world standard for international karate competition (if karate made it into the Olympics it would be under this ruleset). It's quite a good ruleset in terms of "value for money" as the matches tend to go on for longer than the older types of karate kumite, but the refereeing is a little "subjective" at times.

    I only watched a bit of the second vid as it sucked so badly. If that is what you guys experience as "points sparring" I'm not suprised you all hate it so much.

    As I understood it, the idea of fighting for "ippon", in karate as in judo, was designed to allow you to place yourself in a dominant position by striking with a decisive attack - not a "tap" as these would be ignored by the referee. The fact that you stop after an ippon strike was to allow matches to take place without any protective equipment with some semblance of safety.

    If I can, I'll link to a couple of animations of winning ippon strikes from Wikipedia which show techniques other than a tappy reverse punch winning a match



    Last edited by Elky; 10/05/2006 8:10am at .
  8. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 9:23am

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     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The first WKF video, while it did contain some good parts: clinch & throws are legal aparently, as well as reasonable contact to the head with the hands and full contact with the feet. But, and this is a big but: A franklly suicidal stance, where the hands are down by the waist only a little higher than TKD. The legs are way too far apart and the fighters are far too side on. As well as that if you time the "hops" they do in that stance you can launch them if you catch them properly. Also Elky that second gif is staged and the first one looks more like kyokushin.
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 9:34am

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     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The back and forth bouncing in goju is a in and out (boxing esque) movement so that you can get in and get away quickly, the difference with TKD is that they bounce up and down which I don't know why.


    I always keep my hands up cause I am just too damn slow, but some people (quicker than me) keep their hands around their chest and out a bit so that they can defend upper and lower (personaly again I keep my hands up as I can take a hard kick to my midsection better than my head). It's not the same thing as the TKD hands around the waist.
  10. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 10:04am

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     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    The back and forth bouncing in goju is a in and out (boxing esque) movement so that you can get in and get away quickly, the difference with TKD is that they bounce up and down which I don't know why.


    I always keep my hands up cause I am just too damn slow, but some people (quicker than me) keep their hands around their chest and out a bit so that they can defend upper and lower (personaly again I keep my hands up as I can take a hard kick to my midsection better than my head). It's not the same thing as the TKD hands around the waist.

    I'm just going by what I see in most, if not all WKF sparring videos. Also the footwork is not boxing-esque. Here's an example of boxing footwork:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KYGFawp14c
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