Thread: Armbar in Self Defence
10/01/2006 10:10am, #71
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We train something like wakigatamae within the course of doing something else, but we don't actually give it a name... it's just considered another species in the Wonderful Wide World of Armbars.
Okay, I start to see now with the kinds of "attempting clinch" motions of a pure grappler, how this would be a little harder to set up. We're dealing with assumptions about how an opponent attacks. Against a strike, it is much simpler. Let's say a cross or reverse punch of some kind comes in, though it works against almost anything except a tight hook -- my student used it against an over-right and, since it was literally the only technique he'd learned yet, ran like hell before the guy's friends figured out what had happened. (Though we did give him unmitigated hell and a shiny new nickname for even *considering* 6-on-1 before running.)
As he comes in, your rear hand (let's assume the right) comes up alongside his incoming wrist/forearm, and will catch just behind the fist. Then, the left hand slams the upper arm just behind the elbow. Often this will mean a horizontal motion, though if his elbow's low, it will mean that your hands hit above and below his arm, rather to the arm's left and right. If he throws horizontal-elbow like a classic boxer, and you know how to throw a zipper, you can bang his arm and hit him in the face at the same time. Or it can be done inside, if the guy likes to grab lapels or shoulders, by taking the left hand against the inner forearm while raising the right arm like an underhook or uppercut and again attacking the arm. Of course, you're exposing yourself on that one, so it's a lower-percentage technique, for those times when you just don't have enough space and you have to play the inside line.
The only thing that I can think of that might make it difficult is that it's utterly dependent upon being able to turn the waist, because that's where the power and the ability to move both limbs simultaneously while slipping the strike comes from. If you're only used to generating power from the hips, and don't know how to differentiate the waist from the hips for power generation (a problem I've noticed in some asian stylists), this might give you trouble, b/c your movement would be slower and less powerful, and thus the timing might get dicey.
I hope that makes sense... it really is rock-simple to learn and apply. If you have any trouble, I'll see if I can make it more clear.
10/01/2006 11:45am, #72Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity
Okay.... Somethings here have been tocuhed on by other folks but I feel like I have somethings to contribute. There have been no postings on this by people who have actually DONE pcp, and only a couple by people who have WITNESSED it effects. I have taken pcp in the (distant) past, and have had friends die because of taking pcp. I therefore think I know some things. So here is the dope (pun intended):
PCP does NOT make you stronger. I makes you THINK you are stronger. And you WILL be able to lift more, because you cant feel pain. For instance: If I put a chain through all the cinder blocks in my garage and stood on top something holding the chain right now I could not lift them. Why? because as I pull the chain my body realizes that the wieght is too much to lift the blocks without hurting myself. So my body gives me feedback that we call pain so I stop trying.
Enter pcp: hypothetically (because smoking dust is one of the last things I would want to do again) I smoke some dust and for some reason decide in my pyscotic state that I want to lift the said same blocks. I do so easily because I dont feel the pain of injuring myself. Till the drugs wear off and then its big unhappy time for me.
PCP does make you hallucinate: Furthermore, because its the chevy Nova of hallucinagens, these hallucinations are often scary violent and unpleasent. They are also that way without external negative feedback. I have smoked dust and seen skulls and the devil morphing out of the sidwalk. I've seen my best friend as sasquatch with 8 inch fangs. Seeing things like that made me feel like I needed to violently respond.
Therefore things to keep in mind for deal with a dusted opponent:
1) my vote only: dont armbar. They will not care if you break their arm. they wont know the arm is broken. and they wouldnt give a **** if they did.
2) remember that they are scared shitless of you and already in fight or flight mode. However they WILL invaribly select fight. Why? because they think YOU are a supernatual montser that needs killing. Keep this in mind when trying understand whats going on.
3) my advice: go for the choke. It doesnt matter how strong they are. No O2 = Sleepytime. Then leave. If you dont want to get arrested for some **** choke the fucker out and get lost. If you DO get arrested, no jury is going to convict you for choking out a dusted crazy person anyway so just shut up while in jail, eat the balony sandwhich, make bail, get lawyer and get aquitted. You will be aquitted and its better to go through the trial then the following other options:
1) let a maniac on dust wander around until they hurt somebody
2) let the police deal with it (because they may well wind up killing the fool)
3) dick around with solutions that dont involve sleepytime for the guy because you are worried about the legal implications of choking somebody. If you are a good grappler get yer choke on. Your trained for it and guess what? your life IS actually in danger and force at that level is justified.
My two cents,
10/01/2006 3:34pm, #73
Okay. Do you spar with this? It sounds really aikido-esque - every art I've personally come across that makes these kind of suppositions about motion has had an aikido influence.
First point: you're catching the wrist mid-punch, when the arm's near full extension? This is a bloody difficult thing to do. He's trying to smack you in the face, and you're trying to catch and grip his wrist while it's moving at full speed. While I'm no striker, and I'd have to get the input of some of the people here who are, it seems to me that trying to catch the wrist of someone trying to lamp you in the face with a cross is an excellent way to risk an early night. Any boxers, particularly cross-trained ones, care to comment?
Second point: having caught this wrist, you're attempting to strike the elbow? It's surely apparent that it only takes a small motion of the elbow to align it in a way that robs the attack of damage compared to the larger motion of moving your hand up into the elbow. Does this really work on people who're aware of the possibility of your attacking the limb? Also, obviously, if the arm is not close to full extension when you land your strike to the elbow, it's not their elbow that's going to be hurting.
Third point: while this sounds to me so far like an utterly sucky technique, and it's going to be hard for some of us to believe it's ever worked for anyone, I'm going to accept that maybe it's worked for one or two of your students against random untrained people. However, random untrained people have been known to be rendered helpless by playground headlocks and similarly awful bits of crappling, so they're not really the best proof of a technique's worth.
So, again: do you spar with this?
10/01/2006 4:41pm, #74
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- Jun 2006
I have definitely sparred with this. But be careful, it's bad form to break your playtoys. It's very easy to hyper-extend the elbow this way. The "catch" isn't so much a "grab" as simply momentarily creating a fulcrum upon which to set the levering strike.. and it comes from BEHIND the fist. AKA, you're not trying to out-time it, only come in behind the blow while you're getting the hell out of the way. Go ahead and ask your boxers, it's similar (but on the opposite side of the fist) to the parry you do with your left when you're going to "Cross the Jab" with your right.
The only caveat is that you MUST move the waist in order to slip the incoming blow... if you do that, both hands will connect with his arm nigh-simultaneously, and produce the desired effect. Hrm... grappling example.... I don't know judo, but you know how when a wrestler "runs the pipe," his whole body moves together, and his body and hands are where they need to be to take you down, all simultaneously? It's like that. If you try to do technique like some newbie stringing together "A+B+C=victory!", your opponent's going to knock you into next week.
Regarding counters, Sophist: no offense, but you're living up to your stage name. Any technique can be countered if the opponent knows what you will try to do next. Just because I've found it to work with high percentages doesn't mean that it's the mythical "unbeatable technique." Just try it. Ymmv. If you can't get it to work, either ask for help or flame on, whichever floats your boat. If you can figure it out from written words it's another arrow in your quiver against "strikers," and it didn't cost you a thing except a half-hour of sweat-equity.
Hard to beat a deal like that, neh?
10/01/2006 4:51pm, #75
Originally Posted by Happycrow
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10/04/2006 7:48pm, #76Originally Posted by Happycrow
I have some issues with this technique as you have described it. Especially your assertion that it is "simple" to apply. I freely concede that the technique itself is sound in principle, but very risky and unreliable in the practice.
From a classic lapel grab of collar tie-up, you will have the opportunity to attempt this, sure. But in doing so you completely neglect any kind of defence as you employ both hands to attack the target (the elbow) from what is classically a "neutral' position. You have no advantage at this point and therefore are relying on surprise and speed. The result is a ballistic joint destruction with limited efficacy and very real risk of counter by the opponent.
If your opponent maintains the acute angle of his arm, what you have is an irritating slap to the elbow from neutral position. Cue the left hook and it's over. This is a classic example of "Position before submission." If you do not have dominant position, any sumbission attempt has reduced efficacy and dangerous potential consequences.
Furthermore, attempting to "catch" a cross with this strikes me as suicidal at best. This is not to say it won't work (occasionally). But I would prefer to stick with techniques that don't get me knocked out on the off chance that I screw them up on the first attempt. It low-percentage and foolishly risky.
I will attemt joint locks and joint destructions all day long if my position is good. It minimizes the risks to me and GREATLY increases the chance of a successful technique. Boxers don't just throw power punches, they set them up with footwork and combinations. Judoka don't just try to shove the guy down, they set them up with kuzushi and deception. Grapplers don't just go for any ol' sub, they set them up with solid positioning.
This is what has been proven to work over and over again. If your implication is that the technique you described is "simple" and "easy" in a practical setting, I would need to here some serious clarification of what you are talking about.And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".
--Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
10/04/2006 8:26pm, #77
Yes, that's the match where Jacare has his arm popped and keeps going. The point being that there is an exception to every rule. Jacare and Roger happen to be those examples. The thing is if it wasn't Roger across the ring from him I wouldn't have been surprised to see Jacare go in for the kill, especially if it was a substantially lesser opponent.
I think an arm bar is a great self defense toll I'm just realistic in what I teach in Rape defense, ie. don't stand around and admire your work.
PS - Scrapper, you the same guy who posts on MMA.tv?
10/04/2006 9:16pm, #78Originally Posted by SophistI'm not drowning my sorrows, I'm preserving them in alcohol.
10/05/2006 5:26am, #79Originally Posted by Kayne
10/05/2006 8:19am, #80
Originally Posted by ScrapperRead this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.
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