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  1. Backdraft is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 8:51am


     Style: Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FIGHTING WITH WEAPONS=FIGHTING EMPTY HANDED.

    Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu practioners often state that their system is so perfected that by learning its emptyhanded forms, you will be able to weild a variety of blunt and edged weapons. They claim body mechanics and core techniques remain the same, and that the weapon is merely an extension of their body.

    Why it doesn't work: As is generally the case in the Bujinkan, a total lack of aliveness and sparring allows subpar techniques and concepts to thrive. Furthermore, any reasonable analysis of for example knife cutting techniques will reveal few if any similarities with the body mechanics of effective striking.
  2. Einar Fridgeirs is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 8:57am


     Style: no-gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The centerline one is good: This is from Austin Goh's Wing Chun Kung Fu site:
    CENTRE LINE
    Another concept of Wing Chun is that of the center line. The centre line is an imaginary line running down the centre of the body, where the vital organs lie. Students are taught never to present the opponent with a frontal target area, but to turn to the side.
    Never mind that you canīt sprawl, canīt clinch, and take away most of your punching power.

    Never mind that just about every effective striking style, along with wrestling does it the other way around - putting your center line OFF the opponents center line.

    Wing Chun tells you to create the worst possible angle for YOU while striking.

    Definently the crappiest theory of all time.
  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 10:45am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hm.

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Weapon Destruction: Also known as "limb destruction." The basic idea here is to damage your opponents arms and legs (their "weapons) to the point that they are no longer fit to continue attacking you. You will often hear analogies along the lines of, "If your opponent has a gun (weapon) and you get it away from him, then that weapon no longer poses a threat to you. If you take away their ability to punch, then that arm no longer poses a threat to you."

    The problem with this lies in the fact that while you are trying to knuckle punch the bicep, they are succeeding in punching you in the face. Proponents of this crap often will argue that they "can't" do the move on you in sparring, because they might cause irreparable damage, and often claim that after 'teh destruction' they would be following up with a laundry list of deadliness such as elbows to the jaw, groin kicks, and throat grabs/strikes. Keep in mind these guys, "DON'T PLAY AROUND" (at least in their own minds), and sparring is nothing but a game to them.

    The often cited cop-out to prove their theory is legit is to point to the ring where MT fighters frequently drop opponents with cut kicks to the thigh and leg. They fail to account for the fact that they are constantly protected during those strikes, as well as setting them up to be executed in reality. Just because striking one limb makes sense, doesn't grant validity to all other attempts, nor should it be discounted that it's more practical to kick low (rather than high) than it is to punch low (rather than high...to the jaw).
    Well, and the fact that if you fall down you lose arms and legs. Legs are more important than hands because they propel your hands.

    Now I don't think arm attacks are entirely bad, but they're secondary to striking the head and torso. You can use them to clear away an arm or disrupt balance. Taking a beat to attack a limb is a mistake unless the limb is in the way of something you want to hit. So we aren't talking about "destroying a weapon" at all.

    Rebounding: Rebounding is a theory of continuous motion, often touted by those who failed physics in high school. The concept is to keep your hands moving continuously to not give your opponent a moments rest if he (on the off chance) were so skilled to stop your strikes. You can tell someone is "rebounding" by the sound of them slapping themselves in the chest repeatedly in between strikes (usually are chops, knife hands, low vertical punches and backfists).

    You will often hear in defense of this theory, other PROVEN scientific theories such as "an object in motion will stay in motion." They argue that your hand is literally 'bouncing' off of your chest, thus gaining in speed and power...so theoretically the more they block the worse position they are getting into. The other often touted defense is of course a comparison to something proven....boxing. Boxers often roll their shoulders to keep loose and to keep continous motion so that their strikes are not telegraphed. Since boxers stay in motion....and rebonding stays in motion, they are clearly the same thing!

    The problems with this theory are simple. a) you are dropping your guard, and will undoubtedly be punched in the face and b) Your hand hitting your chest, and then reversing direction means that scientifically your hand at one point stopped moving, and thus the entire concept of continous motion goes out the window. Your hands are NOT made of rubber, and do not compress to create a greater velocity after impact.
    Rebounding feels good because it relaxed the antagonists of your strike -- so you really *are* hitting faster, because your biceps and other muscles aren't acting as a brake. Mind you, that's only after wasting time with the rebound, so not really.

    What a rebounder should actually do is learn to strike with less tension.
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 10:50am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Um... even if they were, they couldn't possibly gain speed by bouncing off your chest. You can't gain energy by colliding with something stationary.
    Like I said, it's a proprioceptive trick that can be duplicated by actually learning to punch better. It feels faster because your not tensing antagonist muscles as much.
  5. Fearless Ukemi is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:00am


     Style: JJ of the B variety

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Police arrests =/= fights among civilians. When police deal with a resisting suspect, they usually always take them to the ground before cuffing them. I see it on COPS all the time. One or two hold the suspect on the ground while another cuffs the hands.
    Last edited by Fearless Ukemi; 9/28/2006 11:09am at .
  6. Plasma is online now
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    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:39am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Well I've searched a bit, but I don't think this has been done before. I want this to be a thread where everyone shares a theory or concept that idealy a) is put off as too deadly or b) is meant to nullify a conveniently "alive" fighting style/technique yet is completely flawed and removed from reality. I think giving a brief description, the style of MA you learned it in, and analysis as to why it is flawed will help alot in disillusioning students of BS artists, especially those who are too d34dly to spar.

    I'll start with a few choice ones I've heard in my day.

    Weapon Destruction: Also known as "limb destruction." The basic idea here is to damage your opponents arms and legs (their "weapons) to the point that they are no longer fit to continue attacking you. You will often hear analogies along the lines of, "If your opponent has a gun (weapon) and you get it away from him, then that weapon no longer poses a threat to you. If you take away their ability to punch, then that arm no longer poses a threat to you."

    The problem with this lies in the fact that while you are trying to knuckle punch the bicep, they are succeeding in punching you in the face. Proponents of this crap often will argue that they "can't" do the move on you in sparring, because they might cause irreparable damage, and often claim that after 'teh destruction' they would be following up with a laundry list of deadliness such as elbows to the jaw, groin kicks, and throat grabs/strikes. Keep in mind these guys, "DON'T PLAY AROUND" (at least in their own minds), and sparring is nothing but a game to them.

    The often cited cop-out to prove their theory is legit is to point to the ring where MT fighters frequently drop opponents with cut kicks to the thigh and leg. They fail to account for the fact that they are constantly protected during those strikes, as well as setting them up to be executed in reality. Just because striking one limb makes sense, doesn't grant validity to all other attempts, nor should it be discounted that it's more practical to kick low (rather than high) than it is to punch low (rather than high...to the jaw).
    Tell that to Kikkoman. I caught his side kick at a Throwdown and knee his thigh like 4 or 5 times, till he fell down. I tend to use it when I already secured a limb or when the opponent grabbing me (to make him release). Its works and I use it.
  7. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:46am

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I palm-strike you in the nose, the cartilage will go into your brain!
  8. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:47am

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pl4zM4
    Tell that to Kikkoman. I caught his side kick at a Throwdown and knee his thigh like 4 or 5 times, till he fell down. I tend to use it when I already secured a limb or when the opponent grabbing me (to make him release). Its works and I use it.
    I don't believe that's generally what is meant by destructions. What you're talking about is a tactic used in muay thai, and yes it works. Elbowing people's biceps and crap while trying to punch them is what I was taught when we were learning "destructions" at my old school.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  9. Plasma is online now
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    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:51am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    I don't believe that's generally what is meant by destructions. What you're talking about is a tactic used in muay thai, and yes it works. Elbowing people's biceps and crap while trying to punch them is what I was taught when we were learning "destructions" at my old school.
    I didn't realize that was a Mauy Thai tactic as well, I learned it in JJJ. The Limb destruction I learned (Ken/Keri Kudaki) involved striking a grabbing arm to make the release., securing a limb and punishing it, and lastly, counter striking (blocking with an attack).
  10. Mr. Jones is offline
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    resident sick ****

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    Posted On:
    9/28/2006 11:53am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't need to spar to know how to fight
    Instead of implimenting sparring a system will try to drill every possible attack that may occur in a fight. This is common in a lot of Japanese Koryus, and gendai budos such as the Bujinkan and *Aikido*. One jujutsu school in the 1800's gained criticism because they had255 katas. Their argument is that the techniques are too dangerous, sparring creates aggresiveness, drills/katas replace sparring, it doesn't prepare you for teh str33t etc.

    *This probably sounds weird for someone who practices Aikido to say this unless you look at my style field.*
    カンフー
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