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  1. Greese is offline
    Greese's Avatar

    Motorboatin SOB

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2002 5:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, first kata garuma= fireman's carry
    The monkey throw I grab whatever is out there. A shirt is nice but if the guy were attacking me in his underwear, I would pull down on the back of the neck.
    The thigh is nice to have, but it can be done on the knee as well.
    Also, the second he moves foward he is off balance and giving me energy for my throw.
    I love wrestling style shoots, they make Judo throws extremely easy. A lot of force coming towards me straight on Judo hard on.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  2. PeedeeShaolin is offline
    PeedeeShaolin's Avatar

    Co-Founder, Retired Admin

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2002 12:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    9 Chambers:

    You can go for a footlock when the opponent penetrates.

    Lets say he steps behind your RIGHT leg. In all likelyhood your going down here. We can all talk about "Hiya" and everything, but your probably going to land on the floor.

    As your going down you want to have your hand on his hips or chest-just SOMETHING to give you space. With your RIGHT LEG your going come OVER the penetrating leg. This is easier to do on the ground and much harder to execute from the takedown. Once that leg passes over his you are in perfect position for a heel hook.

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  3. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 5:24am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    greese,

    Do you practice against wrestlers or just guys from your dojo trying to tackle you? Its not the same. The shoot is the exact opposite of a tackle.

    On a tackle your back is hunched over and your weight is in your upper body. On a wrestling shoot your back is straight or arched and your weight is low and in your hips. Did you read the description above?

    For the fireman's carry in wrestling they use an arm. When someone is shooting they are way to low for you to reach down and under the leg if you have the arm. There is about a half a foot to a foot between their butt and the ground as they shoot forward.

    You are saying grab the shirt and fall back so you can reach down under the leg? ...

    That might work if he is shooting really high. When most wrestlers shoot, their head is about as high off the ground as your waist. I don't see what you mean about a fireman's carry there. I am interested in how you are doing this. I'm not dismissing it, just asking for clarification.

    How are you getting your hip under his when his are lower than your knee? I don't think I am reading you right. It sucks trying to do this online.

    I don't see you getting leverage for a throw that involves any hook under the crotch. His stance is too wide while he is shooting and all his weight is over the part you are trying to hoist. He could just take his weight off his legs and let himself drop and sit on your arm. He'd land on top of you.

    If a wrestler's hips aren't lower than yours he just isn't going to shoot. Also, his hands are out in front of him to push on your arm going between his legs. In fact that is just about where his arm is hanging during the shoot. He is trying to wrap your leg, not your waist.

    I have used low kicks to the knee or shin to keep guys that low from shooting in during practice - but you can't pivot the kicks in there - or the guy will just stop his shoot on a dime. Its easy, he simply lets his front foot land early. His arms are ahead of his leg (on either side) so its easy to shield yourself from a round kick. Then he'll shoot at you when your legs are facing at a 90 degree angle to him. You can't evade him in that scenario.

    Keep the front guard or you'll end up like the guy on that MMA vs Kung Fu video in the download section. If you turn your hip toward him then you won't be able to evade him. (NOTE: The tackle on that video is not a wrestling shoot)

    * Some kicks I've gotten off in this situation are:

    A rear leg front stamps with a slightly airborne base leg. (Not a jump - just slightly lifting your foot as you kick - or even just your weight by loosening up that knee) It is faster that way and its more close-range since you don't have to advance forward with it. Heck you can even float backwards on it.

    Also, if you land the kick you can give up ground on impact (floating back even more) and stay right over your feet. You aren't planted. The power in the kick comes from its velocity and impact and not a push.

    This kick should land on his chest or neck/chin. On a shoot the wreslter's waist drops low as he picks up his front leg and pushes off with the back one - then he scoops back up as he grabs your leg. His chest will be about where you are thinking his knee would be while he is shooting. He drops as he comes forward.

    Watch the Olympics in 2004 or go to a local college wrestling meet. You'll see what I mean.

    * If you are going for the knee with a kick I recommend converting that rear leg front stamp into a side kick in the air mid-kick, using your hips for torque - whip it out from the waist like a rear leg Muay Thai kick. This will put your foot sideways and you have more of a chance of hitting his leg.

    You might try a rear leg Muay Thai kick to the side of the knee but that you are going to be easier to grab. Use that when he is still far away. When he shoots in you don't want to be circling forward. You either want to SPRAWL or give up ground while pushing off or floating back off of a kick, strike or push.

    Either way, keep your arms out in front of you and push off if he keeps closing in - strike if you get him to hesitate at all. Don't let him grab that leg. Grab what you can - his arms or head/neck.

    --- my point in all this is, seeing those demo videos by Emin and all kinds of stuff in magazines and so on - people just don't seem to even know what the shoot looks like. (see description in above post) - they see it happen and don't even seem to have known what they saw.

    Wrestling is more complicated than it looks and martial artists should expose themselves to it at some level. At least go to a few college matches. It most likely will cost you $3 and take an hour. No big deal. Most people are completely ignorant of the dynamics and form involved in wrestling - that's why if you look at the stats, it is the still the most winning art in MMA competition, even more than BJJ.




    >> Do not depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him. Do not depend on the enemy not attacking; depend rather on having a positioin that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 5:45am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Peedee,

    I agree, most of the time you are either going to sprawl or go to your back and hope for the guard against a good shoot.

    Kicks are very low percentage against a shoot, strikes as an initial reaction are low too. The target is moving fast.

    Pushes and shoves are good - pushing his chest, shoulders, face or whatever you can. Sprawling is the standard counter.

    A heel hook could work. Sprawling and controlling his head is the wayto go - but if he got in too quick - I'd pull his hair to try for a strike to the neck or a choke. I might try to hook the arm or a leg for a lock. It all depends on what you can get.

    Wrestlers don't tend to practice locks but they are usually aware of them if they have been in it for very long. Still, you fight like you train.
  5. Groganer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2002 12:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's one that I watched a guy take 3rd in the NCAA's with (yes, it's a wrestling move - who cares), and one with which I won several matches after having just learned it. If the guy gets your leg in a single position with his head on the inside as though he's gonna dump you backward onto your back, simply slip your forearm under his throat.

    So, let's say he's got the right leg (which means his left shoulder is down on your inner thigh). Slip your right forearm under his throat, and your left arm in an upper cut motion under his right arm. Now, all you have to do is arch back and take the monkey over the top. you can then choke him out completely. Plus, you're in a great position to start throwing in knees to the ribs, etc.

    This movement is called "the crank", and it's a kick ass movement for wrestlers and fighters alike.



    Edited by - Groganer on September 04 2002 12:19:15
  6. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 2:49am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    cool .. do you mean under the arm from the inside or outside?

    You could also go for the DVD! lol
  7. timcraig

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 3:35am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How about a spin? Just take a step back and to the right with your right leg as he's coming to in shoot(it could be either leg, just reverse the hands and feet). Then put your left forearm under his right armpit. At the same time push down/to your left in a circular motion. As you push the head, pull up/right in a circular motion with the left. Then turn to your right. You can put them away from you, or right in front, perfect place for dropping a knee on them/hammer to the face, etc.
  8. Greese is offline
    Greese's Avatar

    Motorboatin SOB

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 4:42am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, this gets tricky to explain. BAsically, you are relying on there movement when they shoot, you get under their hips by dropping. Most people drop to there knees. I tend to drop so I have one leg extended straight and the other curled. This pust my hips about 3-4 inches off the ground. The wrestlers motion takes them right over.
    I work with our college wrestling club some.
    I am not a big shoot fan. I am not real good at doing them and feel really exposed, but for some people they are great. I once saw a guy make it to the semis Judo tourney, just with shoots. Of
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  9. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 9:21am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tim,

    You want to get both legs clear if you can, but if you land that push to the head you could be able to keep him off your leg that ends up in front.

    You might get an "arm drag" by hooking your hand around his tricep from the outside a lot easier than hooking under his armpit. Wrist and elbow control are big in wrestling so they try to keep their arms tight against their ribs like boxers.

    (Not that any person has perfect form all the time, I am just saying not to count on having room to get under his arm, you might not)

    You aren't going to flip the shooter over sideways because of the nature of the footwork. The front leg is lifted off the ground slightly and then he pushes off of his back leg to shoot, then the back leg slides up as the front foot lands. The hips dip down over the front leg on the shoot.

    Wrestlers are taught to always stay on the balls of their feet. Its for mobility. If you twist him to the side towards his back leg then he will just land his front foot and let his back leg slide out for a wide step to that side. If you twist him to the side of his front leg hoping to topple him then he will let his rear leg slide up and take a wide step with his front foot.

    Wrestlers don't use a lot of throws because of the low stance and center of gravity involved. The idea is to prevent from being thrown by your stance and position. Its hard to throw them. They are always low. You might see a hip toss or a fireman's carry.

    That being said, slams and throws are not legal in Folkstyle (Olympic) wrestling. Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers use suplexes, hip tosses and a higher fireman's carry.

    I would rely on either stopping his advancement with pushes and strikes as I step/glide back - or grabbing his head and neck as he shoots in for a choke and strikes.

    Shoves, pushes and pulls are under-rated in the martial arts. A little Sumo thrown into your training wouldn't hurt a guy. People should know that not every strike has to damage. Some strikes set the guy up so you can get the good ones in - some just move him into position. Musashi talks about the difference between a strike and a hit.


    >> Do not depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him. Do not depend on the enemy not attacking; depend rather on having a positioin that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu
  10. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/05/2002 9:54am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    greese,

    The guy should be shooting at your leg and not your waist. I don't understand why (when you drop) he doesn't just drop with your extended leg. Does he let go of it?

    >The monkey throw I grab whatever is out there. A
    >shirt is nice but if the guy were attacking me in
    >his underwear, I would pull down on the back of
    >the neck.

    .. so you are saying, when he shoots in trying to grab your leg, you slide it forward and under him, falling back on your back leg?

    >I generally let them start moving me back
    >then do a "monkey throw" (fall back, leg to
    >thigh and throw)

    .. so if he is moving you back then he has your leg wrapped or you are pushing him to keep him off?

    If you are locked up then I've used "Hiza Garuma" on his back leg successfully pretty often - but never on a guy as he is shooting. Again "Kata Garuma" is standard in wrestling (fireman's carry like you said) but against a guy standing up and locking with you - not against a shoot.

    Now if you mean kind of a "Tomoe Nage" I still think the guy is too low but if you pushed him first then dove under I could see you getting that one.

    >Also, the second he moves foward he is off balance
    >and giving me energy for my throw.

    I really don't think you read the description in my first long post. His momentum is never ahead of his legs.

    Now what if he shoots low at your ankles, hooking the ankle and pressing into your knee with his shoulder?

    >> Do not depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him. Do not depend on the enemy not attacking; depend rather on having a positioin that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu
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