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  1. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 1:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What kind of counters and preventative measures do you think are most effective against wrestlers and shoot fighters who use the standard penetration step and takedown?
  2. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 1:37pm

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     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I tend to do more throws as counters to that. I generally leet them start moving me back then do a "monkey throw" (fall back, leg to thigh and throw) or hiza garuma (knee wheel). IF they are they are going real high on the shoot I will go into kata garuma (shoulder wheel). It really depends on how I feel thier movement, balance, and how skilled they seem to be.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  3. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 1:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have some very old Black Belt magazines. You'll some pretty funny stuff from people that half the world would have you believe are "Masters".

    The Best is to drop into horse stance and deliver the "Crushing Elbow" to the spine at the exact moment the opponent shoots.

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  4. Mr_Clean is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 4:09pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmmmm....good question. I guess it depends on what the oppponent shows me. Not sure what "traditional" calls for but I might....

    If they go low and lead with the head/shoulders (no comments from the peanut gallery), I am going to go for high % strikes to the face, TMJ, back of the neck (GB20)with either my knees or thighs if I am fast enough. If not then my elbows, forearms or knife hand strike.

    If they shoot higher I will let their momentum set them up for a Tomoe Nagi, Daki Kubi, Hadaka Shime or Uki Otosh.
  5. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 4:32pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mr Clean,
    What type of throw is Hadaka Shime?
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  6. Mr_Clean is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 5:06pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mr Clean,
    What type of throw is Hadaka Shime?

    Sorry my bad. I used the Dan Zan Ryu JJ term. It's not technically a throw. In it's basic form it is a guillotine choke. Typically I end it with a spine stretch/neck crank or a barrel roll type manuever into a arm bar with a choke.
  7. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2002 5:28pm

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     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gotcha.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  8. darkface is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2002 3:12am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sprawl!
  9. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2002 3:12am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me review for some of you what a penetration step and shoot is ::

    The wrestler takes a crouched stance with his arms out in front like a boxer only he is hunched down low. His weight is on the balls of his feet and not his heels. His legs are set kind of like a runner waiting for the starters pistol. At the right moment (maybe after a simple feign, a slap or tangling with your arms up top, getting wrist or elbow control) his waist drops and he does this:

    Penetration step:

    Without curling up or shifting his weight back first (that would telegraph the shoot) he lifts his front foot, pushes off of his back foot and takes a big step forward. He keeps his back straight and his head and shoulders remain up - he doesn't dive down, he can still see you.

    His high shoulders shield his head from the sides and he keeps his hands up in front of his face. His chest is over his front leg during the step.

    Shooting:

    He takes a big low step and lands on his foot - not his knee. His back leg slides along after him so he can take another step with that leg if his first knee does go to the mat - he is never really extended in an awkward stance.

    During the shoot, his weight is suspended there over his shooting leg and his back leg is soon sliding forward so he is not extended ahead of his legs.

    It isn't a dive or a football tackle. He is still facing you. He grabs your leg at the knee or ankle. If you don't sprawl back with your legs or resist the grab then he may go for the double-leg takedown or throw his shoulder into your hip and drive you to the mat.
    -------------

    greese -

    * A shoulder throw wouldn't work because his weight is low in his hips. His back is straight and he is facing you. He would just step in and follow you, then bend his knees and wrap your waist with his arms as you went for the throw. He would crowd you, stick to you. Then he would extend his legs or thrust a hip into yours, lifting you up or pushing your legs out from under you. Then toss you on your back. Hope you get the guard, maybe you should have went for that instead.

    The shoulder throw might work if the guy goes way too high and stays there. If he squats and he is still over his leg then he can even just step around.

    * Q. On this monkey throw what are you grabbing with your arms?

    * His hip and thigh are not available for a foot to be placed there for a throw on his front leg. His weight is low and over his front leg, his hip is on his stomach pretty much - covering his front thigh. You might be able to kick at the back thigh if he comes up high and tries to take a step with it. Then you might get your shoulder throw, I guess. :)

    *Falling back. He may just lay flat on top of you or spin to the side guard if you fall back. His feet are still right under him and he can step in any direction. No momentum throws work when a guy has such a low center of gravity and a wide stance with his weight over his legs.

    Peedee -

    You are right, it is silly. The spine is not available for a strike. The head is high and he is facing you. You would end up hitting him on the top of his head - if anything. Since he can see you (he is facing you) he would just have to dodge to the side or even tilt his head for that to slide off with no effect. Also, wrestlers do neck strengthening exercises (like bridging) to prepare for things like that. Kurt Angle won a gold medal with a broken neck.

    Mr. Clean -

    The guiiltine choke is a good idea. If you can get the underhooks on the arms over his head you could try that. Pushes might set that up. Bolander won a UFC match with a double underhook to a guillotine.. at least I think it was Jerry..

    * A standard wrestling procedure is to sprawl the legs back and try to wrap the neck with the arms. From there you can spike him toward the mat by driving your hips into his head and arching your back.

    Tito usually follows this up with knees to the head - well, he did before they made that against the UFC rules. You could punch with one arm, choke or try to reach under him for an arm drag and flip him for the mount.

    * Shooting your arms out to push at his chest/face as you step your legs back and then following that up with quick strikes to the face, neck, collarbone also might have a good effect. I wouldn't go for a kick until you stop him with strikes. Just don't let him get ahold of your arms and don't lock your elbows.

    * Pushing his head down and striking the back of the neck is an option. Pushing his head to the side might help too. Just remember to slide your legs back as you push. The eyes are targets there too. You can pull hair. Control the head before you go for strikes. Stop his advancement firts.

    * Also remember, wrist control, arm drags, elbow control ...

    * Kicks - There are two kicks that you can use in here but I'm not going to talk about them because they are specials for certain situations and not standard by any means.

    * Heh ... once during wrestling practice a guy and I pushed off of his shoulders, raised my knees and jumped over him. He went face first into a pile of mats behind me .. he was kind of embarrassed. I guess you could dive or roll over a guy .. but then he is just going to come back and shoot again.


    >> Do not depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him. Do not depend on the enemy not attacking; depend rather on having a positioin that cannot be attacked. - Sun Tzu
  10. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2002 3:23am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Preventative measures that I use are - you know .. staying low, keep your hands out in front of you, be prepared to sprawl back or use the push off (pushing at him and letting yourself slide, step or float back) - but pushing off is not an option in the octagon with a fense behind you.

    There is more to wrestling than meets the eye.
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