Hwarang-Do at a grappling tournament

**Miguksaram** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 6:08pm

Originally Posted by hwarang76

miguksaram,

Thank you, finally an intelligent response to reply to. You make very good points and I only have my words to prove what I'm saying about the history of Hwa Rang Do. I really don't care if you believe it or not, I know I do. Korean martial arts history (or any Korean history) is hard to sort out due to the Japanese occpupation. Much literature was destroyed, temples were burned, and their culture was almost completely oppressed. Thanks a lot Yi Dynasty and confucianism for disbanding the Korean military....good thinking with China, Japan and Russia knocking on your doorstep!! I just know what I've seen and Do Joo Nim has some incredible ability, so does his son Chief Master Lee.

Don't thank me yet. You may not like me after what I have to say. First of all let me just say that I used to suck up this 20000000 year old Korean MA history like a fat China man in an all you can eat noodle shop. I knew all of the taekwondo history as well as your own HRD history by heart. I finally decided to think for myself and compare this history to actual Korean history. My wife's uncle is one of the original students of the Jidokwan and he and I talked (actually he and spoke and my wife translated.) and the whole Hwarangdo business didn't rear its head until late 60's early 70's. So this isn't a case of "I think it sounds fishy so I just don't believe it" I actually did research.

Now KMA is hard to sort out not due the Japanese occupation but due to a lot of Korean egos making up **** to sound like they had it together for a long time. Japan's influence effected more of the upper society of Korea, not to mention most centered in the larger cities such as Busan and Seoul. The more rural areas we not as affected as people might have thought. My wife's family comes from Chunju and they never had to deal with the Japanese at all. They knew of the atrocities but they didn't see it first hand because the Japanese never made it out that far. The Yi Dynasty (1392-1910 aka Chosun Dynasty) did not ban the military at all. The proof of that is A) Muyedobotongji was written in the 1700's and based on the current military techniques and weapons at that time B) The Koreans thwarted the Japanese invasion in the 1500's C) They were able to ward off Admiral Perry's psyudo invasion as well.

Confucianism caused a down fall in the martial art practice of Korea at that time, due to a change of ideology of pursuing more intellectual endevours. Martial arts was still practiced but mostly by thugs and lower caste system. Confucianism did not ban the military. In fact it was due to the military that Korea when through so many Kings. A lot of coupe's happened. DJN Lee's ability has not thing do with the fact that he is spewing half truth's. Which is what I can't stand.

There are more texts our there but they are hard to translate because of the use of Chinese characters, we can get into that more if you want.

Again total bullshit. Unless those texts are written in ancient chinese sanskrit, they would surely be able to be translated. If you don't believe me, then just send it over. I will have one of my many Chinese programers that work in my office help me translate. Hell I'll have my wife start the tanslation for me.

I've heard independant sources both confirm and deny HRD's claims. A good book is "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest E Morgan. A good read and it talks a little about HRD. Check it out.

I have that book and I have read that book and I enjoyed that book but his view on HRD history is not correct either. Besides, as it was mentioned, it is more of his philisophical view point on the arts more than a history book.

My reason for writing here is someone was trashing my boy and I didn't like it. I do wonder why when HRD show up at events we draw so much attention? What is that about y'all?

You are more than welcome to defend your boy. I still don't get why he wore a black belt in a white belt division, but oh well. I personally don't give a rat's as if he won, lost or got ass ramed during the whole thing. However, you were the one that started spewing out the spoonfed history so I needed let you know that it is not all true. As for why people stare at y'all during the tournaments, perhapse it is because of the cute uniforms.

As far as my experience goes I trained in TKD for seven years so I have a good handle on that, and yes HRD has much more and better kicking. I trained in Judo for a year so I know a little about that and come on, judo again sport, limited, no joint manipulation, that's juijitsu and aikido. Does judo have kicking?? Does TKD have throwing and joint manip?? No!!

Ok, I will see your 7 and raise you 13 more for a total of 20 and believe me there is no kick that HRD does that most TKD's don't do as well. As for your Judo training, you should have looked deeper into the history of judo as it does have joint manipulation...I mean you do know that Judo originates from jujitsu right? And yes, judo does have kicks, I do believe they are mostly lower kicks but they do have them. TKD (Korean Karate) did, and some still do, practice basic throws and joint manipulation.

As far as hapkido goes all I know is when we were in Korea the top raking HKD Grandmasters were present at a banguet and most assuridly lowered their head to Do Joo Nim, if you know Korean culture you know what that means. Also Do Joo Nim was given the Lion's award in Korea which signified him as the highest ranking martial artist in the country, this was awaded to him by the president and evidence of this is documented. [ There is an article about it in Black Belt Magazine if that's worth anything to you. Oh and yes Joo Sang Lee did open a Hapkido school that was before Do Joo Nim was given permssion to teach HRD, that's why the Lee brothers trained in HKD, is there a mix, maybe, probably. But I can tell you this, the Hwarang did exist, that is certainly documented. Hwa Rang Do did not, that was Do Joo Nim's creation for the martial and healing skills he had acquired in his training. Make sense??

First of all who were these high ranking masters? Was Ji, Han-jae there? Was Kim, Jin-pal there? Hell was Chang Gi-do there? Was his brother there? Technically he would be the highest ranking. Plus you need to realize that Korea hands out awards like a pedofile handing candy on a play ground. I would look into if Lee made a nice contribution to a political party. Not saying he did...just saying take a look.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 7:22pm

So...beautiful...*wipes a tear from eye*

You are a master, hyeongnim.

**IzzyDaHedgehog** · Posted On: 10/18/2006 7:30pm

Originally Posted by hwarang76

Hello, I teach Hwa Rang Do, so of course I'm biased but I just had to respond.

Ok so I thought about making some smart ass comments in response but that only brings me down to your level, and really who wants to be there. What I can say is typically there is only one reason people trash talk someone else, or in this case another style...weakness and insecurity. Congrats on displaying both!!!

I want to first defend my comrad by saying that he only trains once a week in grappling and he is actually the teacher. He only gets new techniques and instruction in grappling once a year sometimes twice. So while you guys are rolling around and choking each other (from the quality of your posts a little too much...get some air to those brains...j/k dont' get all grumpy) two hours a night three or more times a week. We (him and I, the instructors...sometimes I feel like it's the blind leading the blind!!) get very little in the way of instruction and only get to practice once a week. Grappling is only part of what we do. Yeah I know it sounds like I'm whining but he did pretty good considering I thought. And as far as him wearing the black belt...come on it's piece of fabric around his waist.....is it worth that much discussion??

So let me enlighten you guys a little. I will start by saying this....GRAPPLING IS A SPORT!! Just like Olympic TKD and Judo. You have rules you have to follow which dictate certain types of engament, therefore your curriculum is typically limited. Hwa Rang Do is not a sport it's a comprehensive combative martial art. It was designed for the military of anicent Korea. Some of you guys got it right when you said old school Koreans were bad asses!! It's true, but most old school Asian martial artists were bad asses!! HRD does it all, were are generalists not specialists. We do kicking, punching, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, throwing, re-direction of energy, and yes GRAPPLING too!! When Do Joo Nim (grandmaster) Dr. Joo Bang Lee came to America in the 70's he did teach grappling but the Bruce Lee came around and everyone wanted to kick and punch so to keep his doors open he focused more on the kick/punch aspect, still however holding true to the joint manipulation which is all grappling is, just on the ground rather than standing. If you know anything you know grappling is all about posistion, isolating one weakness on your opponent and attacking with your whole body, right??!!

Now let me address our arts validity cuz I'm really sick of hearing ignorance (it means lack of knowledge not stupidity so relax)!! Do Joo Nim and his brother were taught by a buddhist monk, Suahm Dosa, in isolation in the mountains of Korea, that is were there skills came from. They did train under the Hapkido banner and then eventually Joo Bang Lee came to head one of the organizations. Suahm Dosa would not allow Lee to teach HRD for fear of it's corruption by the general public....a valid fear considering some of the meat heads running around. Finally Suahm Dosa gave Lee permission on his death bed and he proceeded to construct the HRD curriculum, Lee made the syllabus, he was given no rank, no belt system, just one technigue a day, if he did not practice it was gone forever!! So lots of talk no pudding, right! Well get your spoon....if HRD is Hapkido why do we have more joint manipluation technigues than they do.....if we learned from TKD then why do we have more kicks....if we learned from judo why do we have more throws?? But I'm just talking right...why should you believe me? You shouldn't why not experience it first hand. Chief Master Lee gives seminars in Madison every year, we just had one. We have judo and BJJ, and Japanese Juijistu guys come all the time and they always learn something new. Long story short he's fricking awesome, at 145 lbs and 40 some years old he would whomp younger and bigger guys no problem. Come and see!! That's really the only proof worth believing.

So like I said we do it all so of course us normal guys (not the onse trained since before they can walk) are not going to beat the dudes and dudets who practice only one thing, duh!!! I'm not great at grappling but I can defend myself against a straight grappler for the most part and I'm training to get better, what else is a martial artist supposed to do? Or are you guys all just brawlers?? I went to the Badgerland deal last year and got beat but loved it anyways. But let me ask you this, why not step into the ring with me under kick punch rules, sparring or full contact and see what happens then? Sorry to be arrogant but your gonna get smashed if you don't cross train. You may be good at grappling under grapping rules but the good HRD practictioners are good at FIGHTING!!!! No rules RULES!!! But is that what it's about?? Our enemies are the other sports on ESPN not each other.

One last thing cuz Mr. Buss is my boy. Talk all the trash about him you want, it only fuels his fire, he's good like that. But for your sake, leave his girlfriend out of it, you do not want to go there!!

Happy training all!! Hopefully I've brought some understanding into your world. If not then hopefully I've pissed you off and you'll use that to work even harder!!

This thread spiralled far out of control in the two days since I've checked this forum.

1. Read what Ronin.74 said. In the OP all I said was that I had seen a HRD fighter at the tournament, that he had DONE WELL for his division, and since HRD has taken a lot of **** on this forum I wanted to know if there were any other schools that competed in combat sports like this. This incident was overall a positive mark for HRD in my book, although obviously one or two individuals don't represent a style. Chillax.

2. I stand by what I said about his girlfriend being hot.

3. Putting a juvenile insult in a post and then following it with "j/k" doesn't make it any less juvenile. J/K, don't get mad!

EDIT: This was late as hell. Might as well have just said "postcount++"

**jkdbuck76** · Posted On: 10/19/2006 6:49am

Originally Posted by miguksaram

I would look into if Lee made a nice contribution to a political party. Not saying he did...just saying take a look.

Always follow the money....:evil5:

**Locu5** · Posted On: 10/19/2006 6:52am

Korean Martial Fun Fact #227:

"Hwarang Do Warriors" is really an anagram of "warrior hands go raw". This hidden knowledge is a tribute to the mental masturbation techniques found within the curriculum.

**Miguksaram** · Posted On: 10/19/2006 7:10am

Originally Posted by IzzyDaHedgehog

This thread spiralled far out of control in the two days since I've checked this forum.

1. Read what Ronin.74 said. In the OP all I said was that I had seen a HRD fighter at the tournament, that he had DONE WELL for his division, and since HRD has taken a lot of **** on this forum I wanted to know if there were any other schools that competed in combat sports like this.

Students of GM DeAlba's (one of the "renegades" of Lee's HRD school) Farang Mu Sul school do compete in the MMA tournaments and do quite well. They also work with Frank Shamrock as well. FMS added ground work in its system some time ago and makes it part of their requirements for testing in their art.

HRD takes a lot of **** on this forum simply due to the crap they pawn off as "truth" and certian business ethics.

**Miguksaram** · Posted On: 10/19/2006 7:12am

Originally Posted by Locu5

Korean Martial Fun Fact #227:

"Hwarang Do Warriors" is really an anagram of "warrior hands go raw". This hidden knowledge is a tribute to the mental masturbation techniques found within the curriculum.

ha.ha.ha.ha.ha...WAY TOO MUCH FREE TIME Locu5!

**Hammer Fist** · Posted On: 10/20/2006 9:53pm

Originally Posted by hwarang76

Martial arts....

India----->China----->Korea------>Japan---->Okinawa------>Thailand etc....there's adaptation and personalization at every stop. (and some say it started in Africa actually)

Oh man . . . I'm having a flashback to the days before the internet made it easy to share information and dispell bullshit like this. So . . . .****, where do I start? You contend that martial arts developed from a central point somewhere in India and migrated east from there? So, according to your broad - and I mean broad like a 1971 fucking Buick - interpretation, people began fighting in India first and nowhere else? Dude, you need to crack a book or, better still, use the search function on this site and educate yourself.

People have been fighting with one another all over the world throughout the history of mankind. Is wrestling not a martial art? What about boxing? Did that come from India too? The English travelled to India, picked up boxing, brought it over to the colonies . . . .and so on and so forth. What about wrestling? It just goes on.

My point - and I'm being a dick about it because I'm stuck at work, so I should half apologize - is that it would be exceedingly difficult to trace all martial arts to a central geographic point. I conceed that there is some merit to the claim that the Indians influenced the Chinese martial arts, but I've yet to read anything decisive (maybe somebody can help with that . .. it'd be interesting). Don't be vague in your claims and spew absolute garbage here. This site was founded to rob ridiculous, unproven claims and those making said claims of their legitimacy . . .. much as many here have done to you.

Take the more rational and well-written criticism you see here seriously and delve into the questions you may not like the answers to . . . life's too short to think dishonestly (aka being a sucka').