Day Tripper/Dream Weaver
Posted On:10/17/2006 1:56pm
Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD
OK 'fess up...you all put this thread on here so I would come back and play again didn't you? Ok..ok...let's see...where do I begin.....hmmmm....
So let me enlighten you guys a little. I will start by saying this....GRAPPLING IS A SPORT!! Just like Olympic TKD and Judo. You have rules you have to follow which dictate certain types of engament, therefore your curriculum is typically limited. Hwa Rang Do is not a sport it's a comprehensive combative martial art. It was designed for the military of anicent Korea.
The only DIE HARD proof of any type "organized martial arts" being taught to the Korean military is the mooyeadobotongji manual. This book was commissioned by King Jeongjo and published in four volumes in 1790. It was compiled by Yi Deok-mu (1741-1793) and Bak Je-ga (1750-1805) based on the actual state of military affairs at the time. There is an additional volume in which the original Chinese characters are presented in the Korean script, Hangeul. NO WHERE did it mention anything about Hwarang warriors. Did they exist yes, but Hwarangdo did not exisit. The did not study some mystical mountain art lead by some mytical dohsa.
Now let me address our arts validity cuz I'm really sick of hearing ignorance (it means lack of knowledge not stupidity so relax)!! Do Joo Nim and his brother were taught by a buddhist monk, Suahm Dosa, in isolation in the mountains of Korea, that is were there skills came from. They did train under the Hapkido banner and then eventually Joo Bang Lee came to head one of the organizations.
The only thing you can actually prove in that sentence is that they were under the HKD banner in fact, Lee, Joo-sang a person that seems to get left out of a lot of conversations about HRD, came over to the US prior to his brother. He opened up a HKD school which remained that way until the younger brother Lee, Joo-bang came over. It was then they started the HRD in America.
So lots of talk no pudding, right! Well get your spoon....if HRD is Hapkido why do we have more joint manipluation technigues than they do.....if we learned from TKD then why do we have more kicks....if we learned from judo why do we have more throws??
How much HKD, TKD, Judo experience do youhave? Please show me some techniques found in HRD that is not found in other arts? Besides the pretty forms. The bottom line is that didn't just wave the HKD banner they were HKD students. HRD was their little invention. Did they train with some monk? Who knows, outside of their word we really don't have much to go on to prove either way. The fact is, however, HRD was not some ancient martial art taught to the Hwarang warriors. It is a complimation of the arts the Lees learned.
But let me ask you this, why not step into the ring with me under kick punch rules, sparring or full contact and see what happens then?
So are you calling out all the kickboxers on this list?
Sorry to be arrogant but your gonna get smashed if you don't cross train. You may be good at grappling under grapping rules but the good HRD practictioners are good at FIGHTING!!!! No rules RULES!!! But is that what it's about??
So you are saying that you train real knife defense real fighting real gun defense? I'm not talking about you stike at me this way and I will block that way. I'm talking someone coming straight at you balls to the wall knife fighting.
Jeremy M. Talbott
Originally Posted by Phrost
"Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
Originally Posted by D.Murray
"Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
Originally Posted by hangooknamja88
My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...
Still digging on James Brown
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:01pm
Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)
You might want to do a search on this forum for the definition of the word 'crappling'.
So this guy's excuse for not being a good grappler is that he only trains in grappling once a week and doesn't actually train because he is in fact instructing the grappling class?? Have you considered just how dumb this is?
If you only have time to teach grappling in class once a week, at least make sure the instructor is qualified. Either have one of your own instructors crosstrain at an actual grappling style school for a few years under proper instruction or bring in a grappling coach from the same school to teach your grappling class.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:12pm
Style: Muay Thai
well im pretty far out of the way but if you know of any douchebags in new zealand who do hwarang-do and want a stand up fight id be only too happy to help out.
i dont get this guys POV. one of the GRAPPLING INSTRUCTORS from your school entered a white belt grappling contest wearing a black belt and you dont think thats a dickwad thing to do? who gives a **** if he only trains once a week. i would think being from a traditional LARPing background you would be heavy on the "respect" thing but it seems otherwise.
oh and 90% of the guys i know who do BJJ cross train, unless they are just in it for the sport aspect. as opposed to doing one art that sucks at everything they do a couple that excel in different areas. crazy idea, i know.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:22pm
might want to check out bob duggan's accounts of training with Joo Bang Lee. He has pics of their school with a giant sign that says "Hapkido."
Oh and "more throws than judo" give me a fucking break. Go dig up the official Kodokan syllabus and take a look at the throws and then the "self defense" kata of goshin jutsu and kime no kata and surprise...you'll see all the "extra" throws.
And if you can dig up some early judo books (like say pre-wwII) you can see those same throws. The Koreans took the old judo self-defense syllabus and kept teaching it, when a lot of judo dojo chose to focus on the sport aspect. And guess what...those "special" throws dont' work too well without the delivery system of judo or ssirum.
How bout the weapons stuff, the short stick. Ever see any Japanese tessen or sai forms ? Wonder why it looks the same....
This is not to say the techniques (if practiced alive) are bad...just that there's a serious level of dishonesty at work in the stated origin vs. the reality.
And finally, a question for you-- are the Lees teaching that deep breathing/ki meditation stuff where they stand "immovable" and you try to push them, but you can't? And if they are, can anyone else do it? Because that stuff doesnt take a lifetime to learn...more like a year or two.
Yes, I am smarter than you are.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:36pm
Style: TKD, BJJ
I call BS on the "More kicks than TKD" line as well. All we freakin DO is kick. 90% of us look like we have our elbows taped to our lower ribs. You could tie our hands behind our backs and we wouldn't know the difference most of the time. Why? Because we can't freakin punch! All we do is kick. So, yeah, no way you have MORE kicks than TKD in your silly made up art.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:39pm
Style: Hwa Rang Do
Thank you, finally an intelligent response to reply to. You make very good points and I only have my words to prove what I'm saying about the history of Hwa Rang Do. I really don't care if you believe it or not, I know I do. Korean martial arts history (or any Korean history) is hard to sort out due to the Japanese occpupation. Much literature was destroyed, temples were burned, and their culture was almost completely oppressed. Thanks a lot Yi Dynasty and confucianism for disbanding the Korean military....good thinking with China, Japan and Russia knocking on your doorstep!! I just know what I've seen and Do Joo Nim has some incredible ability, so does his son Chief Master Lee.
There are more texts our there but they are hard to translate because of the use of Chinese characters, we can get into that more if you want. I've heard independant sources both confirm and deny HRD's claims. A good book is "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest E Morgan. A good read and it talks a little about HRD. Check it out.
Look I'm not here to trash other martial arts or say HRD is the best, I think it is but what do I matter? My reason for writing here is someone was trashing my boy and I didn't like it. I do wonder why when HRD show up at events we draw so much attention? What is that about y'all?
As far as my experience goes I trained in TKD for seven years so I have a good handle on that, and yes HRD has much more and better kicking. I trained in Judo for a year so I know a little about that and come on, judo again sport, limited, no joint manipulation, that's juijitsu and aikido. Does judo have kicking?? Does TKD have throwing and joint manip?? No!! As far as hapkido goes all I know is when we were in Korea the top raking HKD Grandmasters were present at a banguet and most assuridly lowered their head to Do Joo Nim, if you know Korean culture you know what that means. Also Do Joo Nim was given the Lion's award in Korea which signified him as the highest ranking martial artist in the country, this was awaded to him by the president and evidence of this is documented. There is an article about it in Black Belt Magazine if that's worth anything to you. Oh and yes Joo Sang Lee did open a Hapkido school that was before Do Joo Nim was given permssion to teach HRD, that's why the Lee brothers trained in HKD, is there a mix, maybe, probably. But I can tell you this, the Hwarang did exist, that is certainly documented. Hwa Rang Do did not, that was Do Joo Nim's creation for the martial and healing skills he had acquired in his training. Make sense??
Now to our training. Gun I haven't done much of yet, best defense not be there I say!! But I took one gun retention seminar and it was cool, actually simple mov't but of course the risk is high. But I have done a lot of knife defense training. We practice the canned technigues first then we put on some white t-shirts, get some rubber knives chalk them up and then yes attack full boar. The chalk lets you know if your cut. That's the sanctioned training, my training bud and I like to go out in the rain and attack each other with a real knife dulled a little, especially the point, that's the one that gets you. I have been cut many times but never too bad. And I have defended my self on the street against a knife attack but the guy had no idea how to use it so I don't know if that counts.
Ok lastly.....sure I'll fight kick boxers. Do I think I can beat everyone....**** NO!!! I weigh 135 lbs. And are we talking fighting or kickboxing, different situations. I'm not afraid of getting my butt whooped, that's good stuff, winning does not promote growth and there is no shame in losing only never trying.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:45pm
Perfect, I weigh 135lbs and I'm a 13 year TKDer with about 2 years of high school wrestling and maybe a collective total of 2 months Aikido, 2 months of JJJ, and 2 months of BJJ spread across a 4 or 5 year period. I STILL call BS on HRD having more kicks than TKD. Better kicking is a school by school and person by person issue, but just sheer number of techniques I think we have you beat. We kick from every angle at every level and in every direction. We kick everywhere and in everyway (but never to the head because that might make little johnny cry and then his mom would pull him out of class and the instructor would lose his 90$/month, am I a little bitter about the state of TKD? yes.) so I have to stick to my guns on that. We have at least as many kicks as you do. Most likely more.
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:49pm
no joint manipulation in judo>? ****, what was i doing then.... must have been some kind of TOO DEADLY FOR TEH STREET form of judo.
and my dad can so kick better than your guys dads
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:51pm
Style: Submission Grappling
Originally Posted by hwarang76
And as far as him wearing the black belt...come on it's piece of fabric around his waist.....is it worth that much discussion??
If he was going to enter the white belt division he should have just worn a white belt. You look like an ass when you enter a grappling white belt division wearing a black belt. Wearing a black belt you’re setting yourself up for a no win scenario anyway. If you win the casual observer will say “You should have won. You’re a black belt after all and your opponent was only a white belt.” If you lose then the casual observer will say “Your grappling must really suck. I mean you’re a black belt and you just got beat by a friggin white belt.”
Originally Posted by hwarang76
So let me enlighten you guys a little. I will start by saying this....GRAPPLING IS A SPORT!! Just like Olympic TKD and Judo.
Wow grappling is a sport?!? I’m sure that that possibility never occurred to anyone posting here. Thanks for making all of our days just a little bit brighter for “enlightening” us.
Originally Posted by hwarang76
You have rules you have to follow which dictate certain types of engament, therefore your curriculum is typically limited. Hwa Rang Do is not a sport it's a comprehensive combative martial art.
Just come right out and say what you really want to, that Hwa Rang Do is superior to all of that sport fighting grappling stuff. I mean how can any of that limited grappling compare to a “comprehensive combative martial art” like the deadly Hwa Rang Do! I mean after all they just do grappling and Hwa Rang Do does it all!!
That’s the kind of BS I used to hear all of the time back when I used to train in Nihon Goshen Aikido and JJJ. Of course years later when I started training in BJJ I quickly discovered that most of the six month white belts would have had a fairly easy time with the majority of the NGA and JJJ black belts that I had trained with in the past even though they all claimed to be training in a “comprehensive martial art” too.
Originally Posted by hwarang76
We do kicking, punching, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, throwing, re-direction of energy, and yes GRAPPLING too!!
Don’t you mean Crappling?
Originally Posted by hwarang76
You may be good at grappling under grapping rules but the good HRD practictioners are good at FIGHTING!!!! No rules RULES!!
I’m still waiting for any evidence that HRD practitioners are “good at fighting”. Put a decent BJJ blue belt or competent wrestler in against a HRD black belt in a MMA match and my money will be on the “limited” grappler nine times out of ten. The only chance the HRD black belt would have would be if they enjoyed a significant advantage in size and or athleticism. Last I checked HRD hasn’t exactly set the MMA world on fire.
Oh yeah that’s right MMA is just more of that sport fighting garbage. HRD trains for “No rules RULES!!” Life and death man!! Kill or be killed real world street survival!!
Posted On:10/17/2006 2:52pm
Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD
I think some clarification might be in order.
As I understand it the initial post was basically bringing up an observation that Izzy made at a grappling tournament recently.
1. There were HRD guys present
2. One such HRD guy won his division
3. Although the HRD guy was competing in a white belt division he wore his HRD black belt (what a total tool BTW)
This was followed by the question," Are we going to begin seeing more HRD practioners showing up at grappling tournaments or is this a somewhat isolated incident?"
Izzy also mentioned that the HRD practioner's takedowns had more in common with wrestling than Judo and theorized that possibly he had some H.S. wrestling in his background.
That basically covers what the thread was initially about. Then hwarang76 showed up with his kool aid induced rant and by and large insulted everyone that participates on this forum. I think that pretty much brings everything up to speed.
Moving on, hwarang76, does your HRD differ from the HRD that is taught in Korea? I have seen the HRD in Korea and was really not impressed, it appeared to me that it was an amalgamation of several other arts and they exhibited no grappling techniques beyond standing joint manipulation. Also you seem quite confident in HRD, perhaps you should inquire about attending a throwdown to exhibit your skills .
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