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  1. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Co-Founder, Retired Admin

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2002 12:32pm

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     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of COURSE combat has evolved! Has WARFARE evolved?

    Okinowan masters used to throw punches chambered at thier hips. This gave them more power because of added distanct and counter motion in the chambering hand. A boxers punch is superior in that the power generated is virtually the same. The guarding hand stays high to protect. It has added reach because you turn your heel and move your hips. It has less distance to travel to hit the target.

    Look at grappling. Movements are being developed ALL THE TIME. Many kneelocks found in Sambo are found NOWHERE else.

    Pankration is not what people would have us believe. A few old drawing are not indicative of a system.

    Look at how many things that were practiced in the past that are obviously ineffective:

    Unrealistic wristlocks: They never work. We all know this, yet they were taught to many of us as fact. They only work 1% of the time unless under very controlled conditions.

    Multiple attackers: Again, fantasy.

    Chi for self defense: Do you have any idea how many men were SLAUGHTERED during the Boxers Rebellion because they were told their Chi could protect them from bullets? Look it up sometime.

    SUPPOSEDLY the first martial art was Kung Fu(bullshiit), which was derived from breathing excersises. Well if Kung Fu was derived from breathing excersises are you telling me that breathing excersises are as potent as Kung Fu? Or has it EVOLVED into something greater?

    Kata was designed by warriors who depended upon their skill in the martial arts to stay alive. when a warrior performed a kata, it was for his benifit; each movement practiced was a technique designed to incapacitate his opponent. Individual techniques were performed just as they would be executed in a combat situation
    Rick Clark, 1989 Inside Karate magazine

    Hmmmm....it seems that our way of thinking and using techniques has evolved alot over the last 10 YEARS, let alone the last hundred.

    Ancient weaponry that was practiced years ago, like the Naginata or Katana, are useless today. Our weaponry had EVOLVED. I used those 2 for a reason. Dont bring up other weapons that are commonly seen today.

    I dont know how old some of you are, im not that old myself, but when I was a child it was considered TERRIBLE to hit an opponent while he was down. You either wrestled him or waited until he got up. ALL things evolve.

    Some very nerdy people like to believe that the "Old Timers" were the best. They could beat ANY champion of today! This comes from a psychological need humans have to believe in superheroes.

    Lets make an analogy: Do you think yesterdays skateboarders are better than todays? There are only so many ways to ride a board, after all..... Its ridiculous to think they even APPROACH the skill of todays skateboarders. A silly analogy but an effective one nonetheless.

    Look at Karate fighters who claimed for YEARS they could fight off 2 or 5 thugs at a time. We know now that this is B.S.. ESPECIALLY the way they SAID they could. And yes, this includes all the people you respect from waaaay back. Look around and you can see photos of Kenpo masters performing an eagle claw strike, a groin kick and a throat punch simultaneously on three attackers.....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

    ....nah.......we havent evolved since then....








    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker

    Edited by - PeedeeShaolin on September 07 2002 12:34:21
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  2. marty_farty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2002 1:10pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    when I was a kid it was dirty fighting if you:
    bite, scratch, pull hair, kick balls, poke in the eye...HELL NOW THESE ARE ALL MY FAVORITE TECHNIQUES :) (plus many other "dirty tricks")
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2002 2:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PD I don't know where you get your info but it needs some clarification to see the FULL picture.

    >Okinowan masters used to throw punches chambered at thier hips. This gave them more power because of added distanct and counter motion in the chambering hand. A boxers punch is superior in that the power generated is virtually the same. The guarding hand stays high to protect. It has added reach because you turn your heel and move your hips. It has less distance to travel to hit the target.

    Punching from a hip chamber was actualy a more recent development in karate. It was suppose to be a way of training newbies on how to throw their hip into the punch. If you look at some of the know brawlers you will see that they did not fight like the the kept their hands up at the guard. Punches were thrown from their it would take to much time to bring the hand all the way back to the hip to chamber it. Many karate styles, Ashihara and Enshin Ryu are two examples, are doing away with the hip chamber and returning to just training to throw punches for the guard position like boxers, this is also do to influence in boxing training as well, still showing the cycle I was talking about.

    Is Boxing superior to karate in hand techniques? Yes of course. Why? Because that is all boxing uses as the means of attack. BTW how old do you think boxing is? It been around for A LOOOOOONG time.

    >Look at grappling. Movements are being developed ALL THE TIME. Many kneelocks found in Sambo are found NOWHERE else.

    Nope they are reinventing the wheel. I have several sambo books, some in russian, and you can find the technique, or something similar, in other grappling arts. Like I said there are only so many ways to manipulate the human body.

    >Pankration is not what people would have us believe. A few old drawing are not indicative of a system.

    RESEARCH PD RESEARCH. Pankration was not really an art form but a way of fighting. If you fought in the PANCRASE you used Pankration method.

    >Unrealistic wristlocks: They never work. We all know this, yet they were taught to many of us as fact. They only work 1% of the time unless under very controlled conditions.

    I am not really following you here. There are only a few ways to effectively manipulate the wrist. What ineffective wristlocks are you talking about? I mainly used what is generally called kotegaeshi. I never had this locked in and it NOT work. Then again I choose my targets I am obviously not going to try it on a guy with wrists as big as my biceps.

    >Chi for self defense: Do you have any idea how many men were SLAUGHTERED during the Boxers Rebellion because they were told their Chi could protect them from bullets? Look it up sometime

    I know this very well. But you are missing my point. I said CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT (which excludes firearms because they are projectile weapons even if they can be used in a close quaters situation) has not really changed but is going in a cycle. Firearms was rather new to the Chinese at the time. I am sure you won't find pple making the same mistake today, well except Richard Mooney pple.I bet you would have acted the same way if you didn't really know what a gun was or what it could really do. Plus the belief in supernatural protection is not limited to Asians. Check out the Brazilians. They used to wear talismans they thought would ward off harm form the wearer.

    >SUPPOSEDLY the first martial art was Kung Fu(bullshiit), which was derived from breathing excersises. Well if Kung Fu was derived from breathing excersises are you telling me that breathing excersises are as potent as Kung Fu? Or has it EVOLVED into something greater?

    What I find wrong with this is what I find wrong with A LOT of pple. They take what pple give them and go with it and don't bother to find out the what really happened. It is already know that Asians fed early western MA pple crap to play up the mysticism and many pple STILL hang on to that crap.

    Generally the FIRST forms of emptyhanded fighting in almost EVERY culture as been a form of wrestling and boxing. It is a known fact that many forms of fighting predated Kung fu so this is a non point.

    >Rick Clark, 1989 Inside Karate magazine

    Please PD is you are going to site someone pick someone who knows what he is talking about, I suggest Pat McCarthy.

    Kata is simply the movements the creator thought would be good to train himself and students.

    I say again KATA ARE JUST TRAINING DRILLS!!!! Every art has some form of training drill wether long or short. The problem is pple try to SPECULATE what the creator was trying to teach with such a drill. So many look for so called, "hidden secrets" Sometimes you will find a different application but many times the movement is simple and straight forward.

    >Some very nerdy people like to believe that the "Old Timers" were the best. They could beat ANY champion of today! This comes from a psychological need humans have to believe in superheroes

    LMAO PD you really helped me out here. Pple need heros that is true. It is common to every society. The MMA crowd is JUST AS GUILTY of hero worship as the TMA guys. I hate dealing with pple who hide behind other pples acheivements. If you notice when I talk things like real fights and competition I talk about ME. Not just to feed my ego but so say, "This is what I've done and here is MY insigiht." But you get alot of pple who will say, "Well Gracie bla bla bla or Silva bla bla bla." I say that is great for THEM but I ask what have YOU done. And they hide behind other pple.

    Now as old timers being the best. I wouldn't say the best they can lose like anyone else. But the level and approach to training was much better. There is a big difference in attitude for pple who train for SPORT and those who train to FIGHT. Who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight. The combat vet with experience or the competetive skeet shooting champ? Its a no brainer. (Besides I don't think many pple today could have taken Oyama in his prime. That is MY hero worship.) My main reason on bringing back some old timers would be to cut down on alot of CRAP you see today. I bet if you could go into a school and challenge the guy to a public fight with the loser having to close his school the rate of GRANDMASTER SUCH&SUCHs and Sokemon would DROP considerably.

    >Lets make an analogy: Do you think yesterdays skateboarders are better than todays? There are only so many ways to ride a board, after all..... Its ridiculous to think they even APPROACH the skill of todays skateboarders. A silly analogy but an effective one nonetheless

    Not a good analogy and ineffective! LOL You are missing a variable here. The SKATEBOARDS have changed which will allow for better tricks, speed, and comfort of the ride. That is like saying are cars better now or then? TECHNOLOGY will always be evolving but like I said it goes in cycles. They think of different methods to do the same thing.

    The human body on the other hand has not really undergone any significant change. (We can argue whether it was stronger or weaker then etc but that would be very involved.) And we are talking about fighting using the human body.

    >Look at Karate fighters who claimed for YEARS they could fight off 2 or 5 thugs at a time. We know now that this is B.S.. ESPECIALLY the way they SAID they could. And yes, this includes all the people you respect from waaaay back. Look around and you can see photos of Kenpo masters performing an eagle claw strike, a groin kick and a throat punch simultaneously on three attackers.....

    Remember the Asian fed Crap to westeners I was talking about. And the crap keeps snowballing. This is an example.

    YES some karateka can take on multiple opponents. I've done it myself. Can EVERYONE do it? NOPE! But you have everyone and their moma saying X style will allow you to kill 50 pple at the same time with your bare hands. Yes that is BS. Also I don't know any SANE person that will try to constantly take on multiple opponents. When I have fought them it was for the reason that I already sized up my opponents (which is a skill onto its self) and KNEW I could take them. If 3 burly bikers that outweighed me by 50lbs (I am fairly big so these would be some HUGE GUYS)came at me to beat my head in I will show you why I was a track star in high school. Many of the OLD TIMERS will tell you the same thing for unarmed combat. Armed combat is a different animal since you have to take in the effectiveness of the equalizer (gun, knife, tazer, stun gun, hellfige missle) you are using.

    I will leave you with this:

    "Every generation produces innovators who, in an effort to keep man's traditions a living experience for the people they serve, reinterpret the common princples unpon which they rest."


    P.S. PD what is your actual email. I tried the one on the site again and but a delivery notice on it and got noting. If you don't want to post it then send me an email it is on my profile. I trying to send you the info we talked about.


    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

    Edited by - Asia on September 07 2002 14:57:27
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/08/2002 5:35am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ask little kids today and they will tell you biting, etc is bad - you thought that because you were a little kid. Your parents told you not to bite. Your coach told you the same thing.

    Not long ago on this forum someone posted a detailed article about brawling in early America where people were biting off noses constantly and tearing ears off and all that stuff.

    You just don't tell little kids to do that. You wait until they are older to let them know those secrets. Little kids fight for dumb reasons. You don't want your kid biting Billy's nose off because he called him a weener.
  5. Sicilian Dragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2002 1:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Ki Chuan Do/Close Combat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First, to respond to the original post, as soon as you started talking about crazy interpreations of kata I thought of Dillman's group - before I even saw your later clarification.

    I personally believe that they simply find spots in the katas where the application COULD be similar to whatever techniques they are pushing and then say that it is the "hidden" meaning of that part of the kata. This would not be half so bad if they didn't come up with such crazy ****. The idea that a one legged stance represents an arm bar on the ground is one of the most inane things I have ever heard. Could they perhaps be juming on the grappling bandwagon just a bit !?

    Re: The "evolution of "combat".

    Assuming this refers to hand to hand fighting during a military engagement, many would say that, in fact, our military hand to hand fighting skills have gone backwards with many of the "innovations" of recent years ! However, in my opinion, there is so much controversy over this point is because not much hand to hand combat is actually going on in today's military engagements and therefore no one really know whether the innovations are a step forward or back.
  6. SnakeEyes is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2002 3:44am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have read some very good points on durring this discussion, and I know considering this is my 1st post I am most likely asking for a good bashing. But more than anything it seems like alot of people here (while making some decent points) are just running at the mouth for the sake of (SEE HOW MUCH I KNOW) It is really all just debate on opinion. And none of you seem to be getting anywhere. I hope Im not the only one to see this.



    Edited by - SnakeEyes on September 19 2002 10:18:52
  7. rmclain is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2002 11:47am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a historical FYI:

    The Pinan forms(5) were not created by Gichin Funakoshi. They were created by Funakoshi's teacher, Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu(1830-1915) around the year 1900. They were created by combining techniques from the form Kusanku(Kon Son Kun) and a form series known as "Channan."

    The Pinan forms also are known as "Heian" in Japan, and Pyung Ahn in Korea.

    I don't believe that any Okinawan forms, such as Empi/Wanshu were created with joint locks or grappling in mind, as George Dillman has suggested. But, I do believe that you can apply those technique to the situation suggested in the form.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2002 4:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    > It is really all just debate on opinion

    Errr You debate based on your opinion. The object of the debate is not th change the other guys opinion but to present yours in the best way you see fit.

    I hope you now see this.

    >I don't believe that any Okinawan forms, such as Empi/Wanshu were created with joint locks or grappling in mind, as George Dillman has suggested. But, I do believe that you can apply those technique to the situation suggested in the form.

    I disagree. The presentation of joint locks and grappling in kata has been around way before Dillman's uhm 'ideas'. Several pple show such applications in bunkai for a LONG time. Today however pple are trying to read too much into things. IMNSHO.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/21/2002 4:40am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    rmclain

    >The Pinan forms(5) were not created by Gichin
    >Funakoshi. They were created by Funakoshi's
    >teacher, Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu(1830-1915) around >the year 1900. They were created by combining
    >techniques from the form Kusanku(Kon Son Kun)
    >and a form series known as "Channan." The Pinan
    >forms also are known as "Heian" in Japan, and Pyung >Ahn in Korea.

    Yatsune Isotu did create the pinan. You are right. My mistake. Funakoshi decided that even the pinan were too difficult for begginers so he made the taikyoku kata. Today in Shotokan - they practice the taikyoko, then the pinan, and then the rest of their kata.

    Snake Eyes

    >But more than anything it seems like alot of
    >people here (while making some decent points)
    >are just running at the mouth for the sake of
    >(SEE HOW MUCH I KNOW)

    This all started with marty farty causing trouble and attacking everyone's credentials and background. I asked him to quit yapping about titles and rank and instead talk about some actual technique. I said someone's rank or background means nothing on a forum. Have some logical threads about actual technique and why it sucks or rocks instead.

    I gave two examples of specific topics. This was one of them. Later, I decided that I would turn it into an actual thread. (No use wasting it) Now here it is ~ it was just me trying to promote real conversations about why TMA techniques or MMA techniques are good or bad as opposed to name calling.

    I was just saying that on a forum what matters is proving yourself with logic and by displaying sound technical knowledge. Rank means nothing .. kind of like in real life. It wasn't about "hey look at me" but I understand how you could get that from just reading this thread.
  10. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    9/22/2002 3:52am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey I found it .. here is that article about brawling in early America.. how it involved biting noses, eye gouges and other brutal stuff.

    http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm

    We don't remember these techniques from our childhood because nobody teaches them to kids .. not because nobody knew them.
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