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  1. Nemesai is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2006 9:40pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nezha
    Maybe im just unable to comprehend the finer aspects of fighting, but that was quite boring. I mean, the guy in the black (lee?) is fast, but nothing really happens, he just taps the other guy repeatedly then dancing around.

    Did ya notice that he didn't get hit once? And counter's are not taps.. they hurt more than most leading punches.

    Hit and not get hit, make the guy miss and make him pay. He was just giving that guy a boxing lesson...and kicking him in the face. I would like to have seen what kind of thunder he could've laid down if he up and got on someone's ass though..

    Sometimes being so good at countering makes you get caught up in not taking a punch. I run into this problem sometimes, when I should just knock them on their ass again.

    I wish we could've seen some ground fighting from him also.


    edit: btw, there is a longer video of that same session where he puts about the same whoopin on 2 other guys.
    Last edited by Nemesai; 9/23/2006 9:45pm at .
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 2:40am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my uninformed opinion: I believe Bruce Lee to be a great philosopher, and early advocate of cross-training and scientific viewing of human combat, but a great fighter himself? I do not recall him entering any full contact karate or kickboxing tournaments, and I doubt that any ground-fighting he may have worked on would be nearly as complete or practical as what we see today. Not knocking him, but he was simply an early pioneer of what we see still developing today.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 3:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    my uninformed opinion: I believe Bruce Lee to be a great philosopher, and early advocate of cross-training and scientific viewing of human combat, but a great fighter himself? I do not recall him entering any full contact karate or kickboxing tournaments, and I doubt that any ground-fighting he may have worked on would be nearly as complete or practical as what we see today. Not knocking him, but he was simply an early pioneer of what we see still developing today.
    I see another individual entirely. Bruce Lee wasn't an advocate of tournaments, so why would he enter one. The power of the man is clearly shown on his workouts rocking a heavy bag and kicking shield. As for his speed, I have yet to see it equaled in my lifetime. The fact Lee could hit you hard and hit you fast would make him a formidable opponent even by today's standards. Ground fighting has its advantages, but only if you can bring an opponent down. Folks such as Cro-cop prove, a 'stand up' fighter can turn the "all fights end up on the ground" fallacy on its head. I believe even a Gracie would find it difficult to hold onto Bruce and more so once he studied and analyzed their system.

    The problem I have is all these jkd folk, because they idolize Bruce, believe if they follow in his foot steps, they can fight as effectively as he had with his methodology. Neglecting the fact that his fanaticism and devotion to physical fitness, phenomenal attributes, and drive puts his belief structure well outside the reaches of the individual jkd practitioner seeking to emulate it. That's why jkd is correctly termed a concept and not a system.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 4:33am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    my uninformed opinion: I believe Bruce Lee to be a great philosopher, and early advocate of cross-training and scientific viewing of human combat, but a great fighter himself? I do not recall him entering any full contact karate or kickboxing tournaments, and I doubt that any ground-fighting he may have worked on would be nearly as complete or practical as what we see today. Not knocking him, but he was simply an early pioneer of what we see still developing today.
    Bear in mind the Lee was also actually an early advocate of full-contact training/fighting. At the time he was performing demos such as the one shown in the YouTube clip, the idea of contact fighting with headgear, gloves etc. was quite a radical concept. During the '60s and even into the early '70s most MA tournaments in the USA were semi-contact point sparring at best, and by the time American kickboxing/full-contact events were being organized on a "professional" basis, Bruce Lee was making his movies and living (mostly) in Hong Kong. He died a few years before the American scene really became established.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 4:33am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    my uninformed opinion: I believe Bruce Lee to be a great philosopher, and early advocate of cross-training and scientific viewing of human combat, but a great fighter himself? I do not recall him entering any full contact karate or kickboxing tournaments, and I doubt that any ground-fighting he may have worked on would be nearly as complete or practical as what we see today. Not knocking him, but he was simply an early pioneer of what we see still developing today.
    Bear in mind the Lee was also actually an early advocate of full-contact training/fighting. At the time he was performing demos such as the one shown in the YouTube clip, the idea of contact fighting with headgear, gloves etc. was quite a radical concept. During the '60s and even into the early '70s most MA tournaments in the USA were semi-contact point sparring at best, and by the time American kickboxing/full-contact events were being organized on a "professional" basis, Bruce Lee was making his movies and living (mostly) in Hong Kong. He died a few years before the American kickboxing circuit really became established.
  6. RobG is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 4:45am


     Style: casual

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OMG..I find myself in agreement with Kungfools!
    LOL - its the first sign of Armageddon!
    *****

    To come any where close to understanding the impact of Lee on western (later, ALL) martial arts...you MUST understand the times he lived in. When kata and one step sparring and no contact contests 'ruled the earth'...and MMA simply did not exist in tourneys. When a battle (?) between Ali and Anoki drew huge interst from the general public...and the public believed (mostly) that pro wrestling is (might be) real. Before even the first form of full contact contests showed up in about the change betwen the 60's and 70's. Very different times, would you not agree?

    The martial arts of today are simply not the arts as they were in the 60's -- and Lee was very outspoken and direct. You could search for a long time before a sifu of gung fu could be found that would teach anyone not chinese. TKD was relatively difficult also - but back then, most taught the older 'kwan' systems of korean martial art in even the largest cities.....it was mostly JJJ, Judo and Shotokan Karate -- finding a Kyokushinkai school was rare...but Goju was abit more available.

    Presently, we can see K-1 or UFC or Pride...but in the 60's? That would have been totally banned from the map.

    Lee...will always have detractors...for we live 'now' - not back in the day. Yes, he was important to whatever we now hold true in western m.art today - and yes, he gets quoted as a sage - or a plagerist...for he changed certain terms from zen combat and other eastern ideas to fit the martial concept.

    "Before I studied the martial arts, a punch was just a punch...etc"
    Was taken from "Before I studied zen, a mountain was just a mountain..etc".

    Non telegraphed movements was what he learned from a book by Dempsy (boxing champ)...every body in m.a. did the static stances...and he demonstrated mobility that was then unknown. Running and weights as a useful adjunct to training. He considered the usefullness of western boxing punches as usefull..and got damn good at them at a time when most martial artists chambered at the hip.
    When the simple backfist was considered, in competition to be totally weak. And jabs were absent at the table.

    Hey, he was a southpaw and used to watch Ali fights in a mirror to see how he might pick up southpaw ala Ali.
    Back then = NO VCRs, no dvds - only 8mm films to watch from boxers...and VERY few martial artists of ANY method were recorded on 8mm. Boxers were...and he was insatiable in his need to learn and use. Some of that footage does survive...but usually not well regarded by present students of open combatives.

    Is there any footage that shows Lee in a 'contest situation' that is comparable to what is easily found now? No, - at least I have never even heard of anything like it...I would have seen it by now, I think.

    Crosstraining and learning what 'works for you' is sorta a 'duuuh!' thing now...but back then - it was a transformational idea.

    The Big Dogs of the tourney circuit back then...Norris...Mullins...Stone and Lewis were all aquainted with and did varying degrees of training with Lee. I know both Norris and Lewis worked with him more than a little.
    These guys were the Shamrock. Gracie, Ortiz, Coulter et al of their time...and they felt his stuff was worth seeking out...thats a pretty good recommendation, considering the times.

    Look at boxing .. go back to Sullivan and the prevalent fisticuffs at that time....Jack Johnson.....Schmelling vs. Lewis.

    Then go to Ali and Frasier...and one thing is clear. Changes in the contest rules and evolution.

    And for the younger members in particular -- I am gonnan tell you a truth that is concrete. The martial method that is state of the art, now...particularly MMA contest methodolgy - will be very different in 30 years to come.

    I kinda envy what you will be there to see come to pass. Dont believe that 'its all best that can ever be'...its not! The martial artist of the 60's was just as convinced..and time proved them wrong.

    EVOLUTION is inevitable - and you will see, as I have; the changes in your lifetime.
    Lee gets boombashed by quite a few presently - and so will the Gracies one day...so will MT...its inevitable, unless you live through the context of the changes of the times; you might not understand martial evolution - but you will....it takes only time and an open mind...and staying in the game.

    In closing...Bruce Lee was a a transfromational force in the history of martial study. All who study with an open mind - owe him a debt, for being - first an outcast and upstart -- and became a legend that is gone. I feel in my heart, if he had lived to the present, he would have made greater contributions to martial study than anyone can imagine.

    200 years from now - I doubt anyone reading will be remembered and discussed and argued about for 'our' contributions to martial study.

    BUT - Bruce Lee will.
    ****
  7. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 4:59am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there are quite a few Judoka, Wrestlers, Boxers, Muay Thai practitioners, Kyokushinkai karateka and yes, CMA people who fought on the Lei Tai who would strongly disagree that Bruce Lee brought full contact contests to the world.

    Full contact martial arts competition was definitely not invented in the 1960s.

    Rant off.
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  8. Sokaku is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 5:47am


     Style: Muay thai - Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This looks more like point sparring than anything...
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 5:59am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Double post.
  10. Fearless Ukemi is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2006 6:06am


     Style: JJ of the B variety

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Double post.

    Maybe you should repost that one more time.
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