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  1. Muqatil is offline

    Registered Member

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    Apr 2004
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    East coast
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    656

    Posted On:
    12/18/2006 6:47pm


     Style: BBT/Flinging poo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dweidman
    That sounds familiar... ;-)

    hehehe... :)

    -DW

    I figured you would know. :)

    Unfortunately, it seems to be the truth.
      #1391
  2. Skinnywhiteguy is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/18/2006 8:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJK Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Muqatil
    Actually, you still should be able to attack. BJK isn't all defensive. Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to initiate an attack. This is something that I worked on with my instructor in the past, and still try to work into my training.
    Initiating attacks was underemphasized in my dojo too. They would say, "If you can back away from the attackers, do it! Why fight if you don't have to?" So most of the training was an attacker moving in on the defender... that's why randori (free form sparring) in the BJK can suck if someone isn't designated as aggressive. And also why BJK sucks as a combat sport. It has the built in failsafe, if you're not being attacked their is no sense in fighting. Unfortunately similar to the Aikido failsafe, if he doesn't grab my gi/wrist I'm screwed.

    At an amateur level it sucks because the defender seems to always have the advantage (you even see this in the UFC). The experienced striking guys will often make the attack come to him and counter with a jawbreaker.

    Anyway, the problem of being passive came around and was addressed through Shinkengata a couple years ago, and it has gotten better in the BJK since (I think).
      #1392
  3. Rubber Tanto is offline

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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    907

    Posted On:
    12/18/2006 8:49pm


     Style: Bujutsu / Muay Thai / MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Skinnywhiteguy
    Initiating attacks was underemphasized in my dojo too. They would say, "If you can back away from the attackers, do it! Why fight if you don't have to?" So most of the training was an attacker moving in on the defender... that's why randori (free form sparring) in the BJK can suck if someone isn't designated as aggressive. And also why BJK sucks as a combat sport. It has the built in failsafe, if you're not being attacked their is no sense in fighting. Unfortunately similar to the Aikido failsafe, if he doesn't grab my gi/wrist I'm screwed.

    At an amateur level it sucks because the defender seems to always have the advantage (you even see this in the UFC). The experienced striking guys will often make the attack come to him and counter with a jawbreaker.

    Anyway, the problem of being passive came around and was addressed through Shinkengata a couple years ago, and it has gotten better in the BJK since (I think).
    I think Muqatil isn't talking about being passive when he says "defensive"...neither am I. AT my dojo we train in two different "modes" when it comes to sparring. an attack mode and a defence mode. Both are with the scope of taking down your opponent in the end. But in defence mode you work to draw your opponent into comitment, then counter... take more angles, etc... in attack mode (for me anyway) its feeling out opponents defences first, then wearing down, flanking or creating a false rythm etc...I'm probably not explaining it right...but you hopefully get the jist.

    Back to Muqatil's comments...
    Quote Originally Posted by Muqatil
    Actually, you still should be able to attack. BJK isn't all defensive. Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to initiate an attack.
    yes agreed...as mentioned above we train the same, BUT lets look at this mystery quote again...

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery kung fu guy
    I have a very good friend(built like Tank Abbott) who has trained years in Bujinkan,his skill is pretty **** good and I like the way they use their body positioning in their throws and take downs,but against a 10th student grade WT guy he was frustrated over and over again trying to get into position,he could never close without taking multible blows,even when he was invited to the ground to start,the WT guy in the guard,chi sao worked very good in that situation,so hands do mean sh_t on the ground.
    My comment was based on these parts in red. I'm saying I would have thought the fight would have become awkward because if he couldn't ATTACK, he by rights should have tried to lure and draw. (Not straight defensive).
      #1393
  4. rw4th is offline
    rw4th's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Jan 2005
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    Canada
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    1,022

    Posted On:
    12/18/2006 10:08pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I was in the BJK, the “offensive” stuff was only touched upon with advanced and trusted students because of the “moral issues” surrounding teaching people to attack in a “combat oriented” art.

    Personally I still think most of you are out to lunch for thinking that anything the in BJK is or was ever alive, but if you are serious about integrating roles into the randori then you should look at what the better RBSD places are doing with scenario based approaches and pre-emptive striking.
      #1394
  5. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Aug 2005
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    Australia
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    6,967

    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 2:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only offensive stuff I did was kapi and kopi. That and the **** I made up myself.
      #1395
  6. thomaspaine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2005
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
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    191

    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 2:43am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Skinnywhiteguy
    Initiating attacks was underemphasized in my dojo too. They would say, "If you can back away from the attackers, do it! Why fight if you don't have to?" So most of the training was an attacker moving in on the defender... that's why randori (free form sparring) in the BJK can suck if someone isn't designated as aggressive. And also why BJK sucks as a combat sport. It has the built in failsafe, if you're not being attacked their is no sense in fighting. Unfortunately similar to the Aikido failsafe, if he doesn't grab my gi/wrist I'm screwed.

    At an amateur level it sucks because the defender seems to always have the advantage (you even see this in the UFC). The experienced striking guys will often make the attack come to him and counter with a jawbreaker.
    Are you serious? Yes some people are good counter fighters, but aggression can be and often is a huge advantage in a fight. Ever heard of Wanderlei Silva? It sounds like you're not doing enough resistance training.
      #1396
  7. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Australia
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    6,967

    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 5:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thomaspaine
    Are you serious? Yes some people are good counter fighters, but aggression can be and often is a huge advantage in a fight. Ever heard of Wanderlei Silva? It sounds like you're not doing enough resistance training.
    Thomaspaine serves up a plate of t3h c0rr3ct.
      #1397
  8. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 5:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
      #1398
  9. Skinnywhiteguy is offline

    Featherweight

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    West Coast
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    23

    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 11:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJK Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thomaspaine
    Are you serious? Yes some people are good counter fighters, but aggression can be and often is a huge advantage in a fight. Ever heard of Wanderlei Silva? It sounds like you're not doing enough resistance training.
    I'm with you.. I was describing the crap of the past. Action is quicker than reaction so there is an advantage in aggression.
      #1399
  10. dweidman is offline

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    Jul 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2006 4:47pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Skinnywhiteguy
    I'm with you.. I was describing the crap of the past. Action is quicker than reaction so there is an advantage in aggression.
    Bleh.

    Tell that to the tens of thousands of counter-strikers out there.

    Agression and moving away aren't mutually exclusive.

    Anyway.

    -DW

    PS. For those who aren't in on Mugatil and my inside joke... I recently taught a breakout session with the attack patterns specifically. ;-)
      #1400

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