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  1. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 7:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    Damn. Takedowns and throws are judo's specialty. I can't believe even that part of judo is starting to decay...
    I haven't said that I have seen any skills decay. I said that competition has fucked things up and it is not a true test of skilled Judoka. I know there are some Judoka that can perform on their feet and the ground, but because of the rules, they run the risk of losing to less skilled players.

    Restarts make it possible for one trick ponies and people who utilize stall tactics to make it to high levels of competition.

    TKDer, you need to invest in a reading comprehension class.
  2. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 8:39pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    I haven't said that I have seen any skills decay. I said that competition has fucked things up and it is not a true test of skilled Judoka. I know there are some Judoka that can perform on their feet and the ground, but because of the rules, they run the risk of losing to less skilled players.

    Restarts make it possible for one trick ponies and people who utilize stall tactics to make it to high levels of competition.

    TKDer, you need to invest in a reading comprehension class.
    I see what you're saying about the "trickery" guys can use because of the rules but I still don't understand or see how or why judoka would rather use sutemi-waza over conventional nage-waza like seoinage or uchimata.

    In my club, we do a lot more conventional throwing than sutemis and we're a pretty competition oriented club.

    Even clips of noob tournmanets that random guys put up on youtube show more conventional nagewaza than tomoenage like high lvl tournaments.

    I'm thinking maybe you were exaggerating a little bit or it was just for this tournament. Things happen.

    Reply to this , please.

    p.s. My reading comprehension is fine. 750 for reading on the SATs is pretty good
  3. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 9:23pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    I see what you're saying about the "trickery" guys can use because of the rules but I still don't understand or see how or why judoka would rather use sutemi-waza over conventional nage-waza like seoinage or uchimata.

    In my club, we do a lot more conventional throwing than sutemis and we're a pretty competition oriented club.

    Even clips of noob tournmanets that random guys put up on youtube show more conventional nagewaza than tomoenage like high lvl tournaments.

    I'm thinking maybe you were exaggerating a little bit or it was just for this tournament. Things happen.

    Reply to this , please.
    I didn't exaggerate. If you would reread the openning post, I said that the rules were not an adequate method of demonstrating the full range of skill in a competition.

    As for your SAT score, I find it hard to believe that you are not a fucking retard.

    Feel free to give your Judo experience if you feel that I am unable to make a judgement on the subject. I imagine that you are very new and haven't competed yet. Which makes your arguing on the subject extremely stupid because you haven't provided an adequate argument.
    Last edited by MONGO; 9/25/2006 9:32pm at .
  4. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 9:49pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    I didn't exaggerate. If you would reread the openning post, I said that the rules were not an adequate method of demonstrating the full range of skill in a competition.

    As for your SAT score, I find it hard to believe that you are not a fucking retard.

    Feel free to give your Judo experience if you feel that I am unable to make a judgement on the subject. I imagine that you are very new and haven't competed yet. Which makes your arguing on the subject extremely stupid because you haven't provided an adequate argument.
    Wow dude....

    Who said that I think I have better judgment than you? Did I? No... I don't think I ever said that.

    You said the rules were not an adequate method of demonstrating the full range of skill in a competition because it seems that competitors don't seem to want to do newaza.

    I'm asking about the throws. You keep talking about sutemi but I'm asking you if sutemi is used more or preferred over (which I don't think is) regular nage-waza and if it was just THIS particular competition or all the others..

    Get the chip off your shoulder, jesus christ
  5. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 9:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The sutemi waza was abundant in this competition. That is why I made the comment when reffering to this competition.

    I don't have experience in every Judo org out there, I will not comment on the quality of every org and their reffing.

    You insinuated that I was exaggerating when I was giving a critique of what I saw on TV. I wanted to ask you what your experience was since you are trying to dismiss my review as exaggerating?

    You should have to qualify your opinion with your experience. Or you can continue to ask stupid questions and make uninformed opinions in a forum that is not for moronic banter.
  6. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 10:09pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    The sutemi waza was abundant in this competition. That is why I made the comment when reffering to this competition.
    Again... More than regular nage or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    I don't have experience in every Judo org out there, I will not comment on the quality of every org and their reffing.

    You insinuated that I was exaggerating when I was giving a critique of what I saw on TV. I wanted to ask you what your experience was since you are trying to dismiss my review as exaggerating?

    You should have to qualify your opinion with your experience. Or you can continue to ask stupid questions and make uninformed opinions in a forum that is not for moronic banter.
    I don't have much experience. My questions are stupid because I don't have any experience. I ask questions to gain experience. I didn't come to a MA forum to make friends. Sorry if my questions sound stupid to someone of your mighty mighty caliber
  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 10:23pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    I don't have much experience. My questions are stupid because I don't have any experience.
    This forum isn't for dumb questions that irritate our valued posters. I have much better things to do than liposuction this thread so don't make me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    I think the forum's traditionally light-handed approach to moderation has become untenable.
  8. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 10:51pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo competition rules definately dilute the "martialness" of the art. The way I trained when I was competing is much different than how I train now. Now my ne-waza is much more fluid and I enjoy it more. I fight from my back, do sweeps, etc. In tournaments fighting from your back is pointless. You'll never have time to do anything unless your opponent is completely clueless. Competitive judo ne-waza is all about taking advantage of an immediate opening such as a throw directly into a pin, a sudden opening on the neck or an arm being out. It's difficult to do much more than that unless you are much more skilled than your opponent.

    As to the stalling and sutemi-waza you also need to look at the level you're watching. At the world level the difference between most opponents is going to be pretty minimal. In matches like that you're likely to have at most three to four opportunities where you have an optimal grip and position to throw. The rest of the match will be spent gripping, defending, doing minimal setup attacks, etc. Watching two very high level judoka going at it can often be like watching two skilled ground fighters go at it. A lot of feeling out, posturing and dragged out action with brief bursts of good action.

    As well competitors at that level will always look for that little edge. Sutemi-waza might be prevelant because that little bit extra throwing your body into it is the bit you need to complete the throw. It's also harder to counter sutemi-waza than a stand up technique. Not saying that makes it better but that might explain it. It puts you in a worse ground position intitially if you miss the throw but you can just pull guard and hang on for five seconds or so to negate that.

    I'd love to see more ne-waza in judo but to me judo still is primarily a stand up sport. Adding on a two minute window of ne-waza in a five minute match will take away from that. Upping the time limit isn't a great option IMHO either. Five minutes at a high intensity is tough, even when I was in fighting shape three or four of those in a row and you'd be done. I think about thirty seconds or so would be a good compromise and that's more of what it was when I was competing internationally ten years or so ago. You had time to break turtles back then though you still had to show progress. I probably won 30-40 percent of my matches in ne-waza, usually with pins.
  9. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 11:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    Again... More than regular nage or not?

    Even though you are coming off as a crybaby, I'll entertain this question.

    It appeared that there was a large amount of sutemi waza and attempted pickups that were used against the Japanese Judoka. I have a couple of ideas on why. The Japanese are generally viewed as extremely technical with regards to waza. Many of the practicioners that I have met that were at national level here are extremely fast and their toquiwaza is usually a guaranteed throw for points. I can understand the caution when engaging players like that.

    Russians are reknown for pickups and are normally very entertaining to watch because pick ups are dynamic movements with large impacts at the end of the throw.



    What I don't agree with is the rules allowing guys to fall back into a sutemi takedown repeatedly to avoid standing and being dominated by a technically or dynamically superior opponent.

    Many sutemi players avoid becoming victims of technical or dynamic players because they are extremely low and pulling with their lower back. When the more technical or dynamic player will attempt to enter for the throw, often a sutemi player will go to ground and stall.

    The rules allow this type of play because if they clutch hard enough or turtle tight enough, there will be a standing restart. This is smart play per the rules but it doesn't make for technical or strategic fights.

    As to the stalling on the ground, it makes newaza much easier to avoid. Players should have to engage at least a little because transition from standing is a very crucial and technical part of Judo.

    And what Judobum said............
    Last edited by MONGO; 9/25/2006 11:08pm at .
  10. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2006 11:39pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stop posting in this thread or I will shave your entire body and shoot you into space.
    Last edited by Shuma-Gorath; 9/26/2006 7:47am at .
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