Posted On:9/23/2006 7:47am
just what would you like thgis forum to believe that 'real russians' train in?
Your military background would be most definitive.
In 2001, I went to a Spetz training camp outside of Moscow..and the regular spetz soldiers went through one of the crappiest demos of kata from the japanese forms of tekki - with a bayonette in one hand..and herky jerky snap kicks that pulled their heads down to meet their knees - and kiai-ed at different spots in comparison to the tekki and naihanchi forms. The grunts didnt even do basic judo hip throws right..not much leverage - all body strength.
We did witness a little bit of sambo at the hotel our visting group stayed at..all done by members of spetz that were more senior spetz members...but part of Ryabcos group.
I had a student once from the Ukraine civil defense forces - and he knew nothing about 'systema' - and showed me what he was taught in the military..and it fit nicely into systema as taught by Ryabco...Vasilieve teaches abit differently - he is more fluid and evasive.
Forget about systema/ryabco/Vasilieve - what about Kadoshnikov?
Traditional russian fighting? What exactly are you talking about? Roknopashni-boi or siberian loach system?
Cossack fisticuffs...or something else. Whats traditional to you? For systema is not as old as SAMBO - in its present incarnation......so, wht is traditional by your post?
I live in America, in an area where there are more Russian imports than arguable anywhere else in this country...block to block comparison....and there are 5 times more TKD studying russians than a great Sambo teacher less than a mile away...and the systema classes in Brighton Beach are well attended.
Cult? My well formed 52 year old ass.
Is there a contingent of Ryabco/Vasileve/ Systema ass kissers..sure!
JUST LIKE EVERY DAMN MARTIAL METHOD I HAVE BEEN A PART OF IN DECADES OF MARTIAL STUDY..EVERY ONE!
When I was interested in JKD in the late 80s and early 90's - I saw students getting chinese tats that were the JKD symbol...in FMA, they also got tats and did FMA rituals for protection from 'the gods' (?)...no different really, than those that beat their fists into makiwara until they had thick, dark callouses on their knuckles back in the 60's...and sure as ****, no more a 'cult' than those BJJ guys that can quote every move from every Gracie challenge...but cant seem to replicate it themselves in free form. All are true believers....and 'faith' (not proven personally) is the opiate of the masses....****, now I am twisting Maos words to make a point.
Russians.....like all from countries - have a certain nationality image they cling to for too many reasons to list.
Define to me, please...definitive russian martial fighting method. I cannot define a perfect american method......boxing? No. Catch as catch can wrestling? No. Street fighting...definetly not.
Systema is NOT a 'traditional russian martial art.'...but as anyone who foolishly clings to any one way to survive and prevail in full all on, balls to the wall self protection MUST LEARN - you train in a method.....but must do something I am gonna get fried by the members here =
take what you can use and discard the rest (although twisting what will be semi associated with B. Lee's writings..that **** came from old kamakura zennist teachings that were more for the sword than fist)
Any lexicon of style or nationalistic system is a frickin limit - and limits in a controlled environment of concensus agreement is deceptive in full blown balls to the wall inter-personal combatives.
Systema has alot of good points that hit me at the the right time in my martial life..and never in full sparring did MR nor VV tell me NO! that ess not the systema or russian way. I can croos choke or arm bar..as long as I move without too much 'tension'...to be more fluidly reactive..this allows much faster movement.
Martial art evolves..at first, within a culture. It gets picked up and moves to other cultures.
MMA - I frickin love this movement...but for me, presently yet, by the rules of contests..its still limiting freedom. NHB does not exist anywhere but in exactly individual instances. And can never be in contests....real NHB is inclusive of all the rule breaking dirty tricks and at hand weapons -- NHB contests will always have judges and refs...real NHB is never gonna be on PFV.
Some stupid prick recently tried to rob a lil old lady in a wheelchir in NYC - he saw her as the perfect victim for his aggressions.
He did not know that lil ol lady was on her way to the shooting range -and was a'packin a .357 Magnum!
Granny blew a hole in his elbow you could drive a car through! Loved her self portective expression of NHB!
yeah, I know - I rambled alot.
rarog - I have been in m.a. a long time...and have my personal tool box that fits me well. But, during my work with systema - and am authorized to teach this to others..which I dont presently..I learned that it is 'what works' that is far more important than is that a russian move? Systema principles are far more generouse than even a native russian might think, without actually doing it under the training of a decent teacher.
Systema is free - and that is an iconoclast for many who dont get the one strongest teaching of Systema and true martial combatives....get home safely....be healthy as your life allows....sleep like a child.
Cult? BULLSHIT! Only those that CHOOSE to cult out on systema are cultists...but back when the west knew nothing but Karate, Jiu Jitsu and Judo as 'martial art' - it always was about 'who-hits-you' and what do you do --- that got you home safely. But many got into style so much that their chose style (back then, usually Goju or Shotokan...Kyokushinkai was kinda hard to find).
So..what is traditional russian martial art, sir?
What is the system(a) that you believe is nationalistic and traditional to Russia?
Ya is schshwa. ya panimyoo nimnoga paruski.
But I try dude, I really try...cause what lil paruski I do know - I like and it serves me well. Educate me.
Last edited by RobG; 9/23/2006 8:03am at .
Posted On:8/31/2009 11:08am
Disclaimer: I now practice Systema as my primary martial art -- for a little over a year, I have attended practically every class (3-4 times per week), a week camp with Vladimir Vasiliev (and Konstantin Komarov), a weekend seminar with Vlad, day seminars with each of Maxim Franz ("Deadliest Warrior" Spetsnaz guy -- vs. Green Beret) and Yuri Talalaev (another trainer under Vlad.)
I claim no special skill in this nor any advanced degrees in the other martial arts I have studied.
Systema does NOT however typically train with open hand strikes, although that is done occasionally and any particular instructor might use that as an occasional drill -- it is far more common to hit with closed fist.
Hitting and getting hit with a close fist is almost de rigeur for 99% of Systema training sesssions.
Counter-disclaimer: I also practice BJJ whenever time permits opportunity presents as well as shooting CQB, Silat/Kali, or pretty much anything.
I am largely immune to cool-aid, but that includes admitting that when one has drunk to much, it is all too easy to say, "I ain't drunk!".
There are some valid arguments against Systema training methods (even if I disagree with other such criticisms), and I read these threads to HEAR and CONSIDER those points; not to dismiss them, but rather to evaluate and attempt to mitigate any such issues.
I have fought against a (real, sharp) knife twice. Once I was cut, and once the attacker was cut (with his own knife), but in both cases I escaped the situation (largely through eventual verbal de-escalation) with no serious injury nor jail time. No bragging here, as it is tempting to say these weren't real "knife fights" since they ended so successfully.
One knife was a 10" blade meat carving knife (like for roast beef or ham slicing), the blade was flexible and this help reduce the injury to me since it turned on the bone in my arm and was in an out leaving two one inch wide wounds about an inch apart.
The other guy got cut with his own pocket knife while attempting to ambush me -- I blocked the attack from the side (he came from behind a door) instinctively and wiped his hand with the knife in it across his face leaving a small superficial cut under his eye.
I have also been cut once while PRACTICING Systema with a TRAINING knife. It wasn't serious but the knife penetrated about one half inch ALONG the back of my hand. This knife was comparable to a butter knife with a moderate point.
I am making no claim to being a "knife fighter" or having defended myself against maniacs with deadly blades, just pointing out that I have experienced a couple of interesting encounters with edged weapons, sometimes wielded in anger.
Originally Posted by MrMcFu
My main criticism, other than the weird heart stopping stuff, was that it seemed that the Systema guys let the knife get too close to them. It was like it depended on getting the blade flat against them and them using it as a lever to break the attacker's structure. Not that I know anything about knife defense, but that was just my gut feeling.
Before giving you my opinion on this type of training technique, I want to point out that sometimes you are better off being NEAR a weapon than farther away -- grapplers frequently close on strikers to reduce the strikers range of attacks and the force that can be brought into the strike.
The ultimate case of this is that when a knife is in play, it is generally best to be HOLDING it by the HANDLE -- certainly this is close to the knife but it is behind the sharp pointy part, i.e., inside the radius of attack.
If you want to get knife out of someone's hand while he is swinging it around or stabbing with it then there are a limited number of GENERAL methods, including:
1) Incapacitating the attacker (e.g., shoot him in the head)
2) Destroy the arm holding the weapon (e.g., break his shoulder, elbow, wrist)
3) Lock, twist or otherwise captuire his arm, hand, fingers etc or to use pain or bio-mechanics to release the grip.
4) Strike the hand or arm holding the weapon (using pressure points or perhaps mere impact and shock) to dislodge the weapon or cause the hand to open.
5) Strip the handle, or otherwise use leverage at the handle end of the knife to pull or pry it out.
6) Leverage the blade -- which is best done from the FLAT, but might include holding it by the non-sharp spine or even holding the blade of a double edge weapon.
7) other? and combinations....
All of these CAN work. Some work much more effectively in combination with others, e.g., leveraging or locking the hand and wrist, WHILE stripping directly.
All of these can get you hurt -- even the shooting him in the head method IF he can close the distance while you are deploying the firearm and before he gets around to stopping or dying. The 21 foot "rule" is well known in police and self-defense shooting and it is quite possible to fatally shoot an attacker and have him cut you severely or even kill WHILE he is bleeding out.
Personally, I don't want to get cut (Duoh!), but if you are facing an attacker who is seriously trying to cut you or kill you with a knife you are already pretty screwed so getting out with minimal damage is a big part of the idea.
Live, stop the attack, stay mobile so you can get to the emergency room, keep any cuts you do get to places where long term damage isn't likely (e.g., avoid arteries, veins, nerves and having tendons cut), and of course get away clean and without that red stuff dripping or spurting out.
Living and stopping the attack are really paramount -- much more than it sounds when we hear a list like this. Even if you can't get to the ER, if you stop the attack and are still alive MAYBE someone else will call an ambulance or maybe you can still use your cell phone to get help.
Of course avoiding a lengthy hospitalization, major surgery, and having full use of your hands etc is a big bonus.
To this end, I would generally rather get cut on the back of the arm (or hand) than on the inside of the forearm or inside the hand (same for the leg probably too -- that big ol' femoral artery isn't that deep on the inside of the thigh.
I might even be willing to (chance) getting cut shallowly in a relatively benign location IF I can end the attack and not suffer repeated wounds -- e.g., death from a thousand cuts. All things being equal, one cut is better than two, a small cut is better than a big one, a shallow cut is better than a deep one, a skin cut is better than an organ cut, an extensor cut is USUALLY better than a flexor although this latter one is highly dependent on the articulation that is controlled by the flexor/extensor set -- e.g., it is probably better to be able to HOLD an object in your hand than to be able to open your hand.
So, if you make a serious attempt to cut my abdomen/chest/thorax and I figure that left to yourself you will continue such attempts (weed whacking or sewing machine) then if I can TRAP that arm/knife against my body I can slow down those repetitions.
All BJJ players understand the disparity in strength by using the CORE rather than a limb. This is the principle, if i HOLD the knife close (preferably in a position where no immediate cut is occuring, or no new cut is occurring if the knife has already entered) then move my body for leverage the force is quite a bit stronger than almost anyone can exert using their hand or arm alone.
Also here is the principles of impact weapons needing movement to generate force -- knives however can cut with limited movement so this does mean I can easily get cut while doing this, but note that letting the knife retract means that it is going quite a bit further and faster and maybe a PRESSURE cut isn't so bad when compared to a slide or a stab.
Also, remember that even if the knife has penetrated DEEPLY -- especially in this case -- the best First Aid advice would be to LEAVE IT ALONE, don't pull it out, so I really want that knife to stay where it is if it is already close to me -- unless or until I can control it or knock it completely out of the area.
Did I make a case for this tactic? I think so, but not necessarily for the STRATEGY of trying to get the knife into that position, only for what to do with it if it gets there, and perhaps some ideas that having it there isn't as bad (considering you are IN A KNIFE FIGHT) as it at first sounds.
So what is the best way to stop an unavoidable attack from a knife wielding assailant when you are naked in the middle of a large empty parking lot (no improvised weapons, nowhere to hide) and unable to run (e.g., your crippled grand mother is with you) ???
I don't know.
I like the "Dog Catcher" from Marc Crafty Dog, as adopted by him and Gabe Suarez for pistol defensive training -- see "Die Less Often: Introduction to the Interface of Gun, Knife, and Empty Hand".
The Dog Catcher has the giant advantage of being able to stop, and reverse, many attacks when you are already behind in the game and taking only a short time to learn to the point that it is more effective than NOT having it.
Does it have disadvantages? Of course, but the benefit to cost ratio is very high for the Dog Catcher.
What about if the attack is even further along? You didn't see it. (The guy behind the door who attacked me was NOT a known threat, we were in the same Army unit and had never met nor exchanged any words nor even dirty looks.)
Suppose you don't deploy the DBMA Kali Fence nor get the Dog Catcher in position -- the knife is under, over, or through your guard.
Being able to relax, twist, and otherwise get your body flat to the blade is likely MUCH better than taking the stab or slash as a penetrating wound.
I can say from personal experience that even having the knife go merely UNDER the skin may not be very painful, very serious, nor very damaging.
[Band-aids for the little cuts, stitches for the big ones.]
I can -- quite literally -- LIVE with that.
Also, I have serious doubts that there are very many actual criminals who could cut Vlad.
Anyone can get unlucky, or lucky depending on your point of view so Vlad is not invulnerable, but my money would be on him with pretty good odds.
How would Vlad do against a master of the knife? No idea.
Oh, ok, I would probably give even money, and I would certainly take 2-1 odds.
[ How much would I bet? Hundreds not thousands.]
and humble, too!
Posted On:9/13/2009 11:02pm
Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling
HA HA HA! Did someone say "systema?"
Originally Posted by Cullion
You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
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