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Posted On:
8/31/2009 11:08am
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Disclaimer: I now practice Systema as my primary martial art -- for a little over a year, I have attended practically every class (3-4 times per week), a week camp with Vladimir Vasiliev (and Konstantin Komarov), a weekend seminar with Vlad, day seminars with each of Maxim Franz ("Deadliest Warrior" Spetsnaz guy -- vs. Green Beret) and Yuri Talalaev (another trainer under Vlad.)
I claim no special skill in this nor any advanced degrees in the other martial arts I have studied.
Systema does NOT however typically train with open hand strikes, although that is done occasionally and any particular instructor might use that as an occasional drill -- it is far more common to hit with closed fist.
Hitting and getting hit with a close fist is almost de rigeur for 99% of Systema training sesssions.
Counter-disclaimer: I also practice BJJ whenever time permits opportunity presents as well as shooting CQB, Silat/Kali, or pretty much anything.
I am largely immune to cool-aid, but that includes admitting that when one has drunk to much, it is all too easy to say, "I ain't drunk!".
There are some valid arguments against Systema training methods (even if I disagree with other such criticisms), and I read these threads to HEAR and CONSIDER those points; not to dismiss them, but rather to evaluate and attempt to mitigate any such issues.
I have fought against a (real, sharp) knife twice. Once I was cut, and once the attacker was cut (with his own knife), but in both cases I escaped the situation (largely through eventual verbal de-escalation) with no serious injury nor jail time. No bragging here, as it is tempting to say these weren't real "knife fights" since they ended so successfully.
One knife was a 10" blade meat carving knife (like for roast beef or ham slicing), the blade was flexible and this help reduce the injury to me since it turned on the bone in my arm and was in an out leaving two one inch wide wounds about an inch apart.
The other guy got cut with his own pocket knife while attempting to ambush me -- I blocked the attack from the side (he came from behind a door) instinctively and wiped his hand with the knife in it across his face leaving a small superficial cut under his eye.
I have also been cut once while PRACTICING Systema with a TRAINING knife. It wasn't serious but the knife penetrated about one half inch ALONG the back of my hand. This knife was comparable to a butter knife with a moderate point.
I am making no claim to being a "knife fighter" or having defended myself against maniacs with deadly blades, just pointing out that I have experienced a couple of interesting encounters with edged weapons, sometimes wielded in anger.
Before giving you my opinion on this type of training technique, I want to point out that sometimes you are better off being NEAR a weapon than farther away -- grapplers frequently close on strikers to reduce the strikers range of attacks and the force that can be brought into the strike.
Originally Posted by MrMcFu
The ultimate case of this is that when a knife is in play, it is generally best to be HOLDING it by the HANDLE -- certainly this is close to the knife but it is behind the sharp pointy part, i.e., inside the radius of attack.
If you want to get knife out of someone's hand while he is swinging it around or stabbing with it then there are a limited number of GENERAL methods, including:
1) Incapacitating the attacker (e.g., shoot him in the head)
2) Destroy the arm holding the weapon (e.g., break his shoulder, elbow, wrist)
3) Lock, twist or otherwise captuire his arm, hand, fingers etc or to use pain or bio-mechanics to release the grip.
4) Strike the hand or arm holding the weapon (using pressure points or perhaps mere impact and shock) to dislodge the weapon or cause the hand to open.
5) Strip the handle, or otherwise use leverage at the handle end of the knife to pull or pry it out.
6) Leverage the blade -- which is best done from the FLAT, but might include holding it by the non-sharp spine or even holding the blade of a double edge weapon.
7) other? and combinations....
All of these CAN work. Some work much more effectively in combination with others, e.g., leveraging or locking the hand and wrist, WHILE stripping directly.
All of these can get you hurt -- even the shooting him in the head method IF he can close the distance while you are deploying the firearm and before he gets around to stopping or dying. The 21 foot "rule" is well known in police and self-defense shooting and it is quite possible to fatally shoot an attacker and have him cut you severely or even kill WHILE he is bleeding out.
Personally, I don't want to get cut (Duoh!), but if you are facing an attacker who is seriously trying to cut you or kill you with a knife you are already pretty screwed so getting out with minimal damage is a big part of the idea.
Live, stop the attack, stay mobile so you can get to the emergency room, keep any cuts you do get to places where long term damage isn't likely (e.g., avoid arteries, veins, nerves and having tendons cut), and of course get away clean and without that red stuff dripping or spurting out.
Living and stopping the attack are really paramount -- much more than it sounds when we hear a list like this. Even if you can't get to the ER, if you stop the attack and are still alive MAYBE someone else will call an ambulance or maybe you can still use your cell phone to get help.
Of course avoiding a lengthy hospitalization, major surgery, and having full use of your hands etc is a big bonus.
To this end, I would generally rather get cut on the back of the arm (or hand) than on the inside of the forearm or inside the hand (same for the leg probably too -- that big ol' femoral artery isn't that deep on the inside of the thigh.
I might even be willing to (chance) getting cut shallowly in a relatively benign location IF I can end the attack and not suffer repeated wounds -- e.g., death from a thousand cuts. All things being equal, one cut is better than two, a small cut is better than a big one, a shallow cut is better than a deep one, a skin cut is better than an organ cut, an extensor cut is USUALLY better than a flexor although this latter one is highly dependent on the articulation that is controlled by the flexor/extensor set -- e.g., it is probably better to be able to HOLD an object in your hand than to be able to open your hand.
So, if you make a serious attempt to cut my abdomen/chest/thorax and I figure that left to yourself you will continue such attempts (weed whacking or sewing machine) then if I can TRAP that arm/knife against my body I can slow down those repetitions.
All BJJ players understand the disparity in strength by using the CORE rather than a limb. This is the principle, if i HOLD the knife close (preferably in a position where no immediate cut is occuring, or no new cut is occurring if the knife has already entered) then move my body for leverage the force is quite a bit stronger than almost anyone can exert using their hand or arm alone.
Also here is the principles of impact weapons needing movement to generate force -- knives however can cut with limited movement so this does mean I can easily get cut while doing this, but note that letting the knife retract means that it is going quite a bit further and faster and maybe a PRESSURE cut isn't so bad when compared to a slide or a stab.
Also, remember that even if the knife has penetrated DEEPLY -- especially in this case -- the best First Aid advice would be to LEAVE IT ALONE, don't pull it out, so I really want that knife to stay where it is if it is already close to me -- unless or until I can control it or knock it completely out of the area.
Did I make a case for this tactic? I think so, but not necessarily for the STRATEGY of trying to get the knife into that position, only for what to do with it if it gets there, and perhaps some ideas that having it there isn't as bad (considering you are IN A KNIFE FIGHT) as it at first sounds.
So what is the best way to stop an unavoidable attack from a knife wielding assailant when you are naked in the middle of a large empty parking lot (no improvised weapons, nowhere to hide) and unable to run (e.g., your crippled grand mother is with you) ???
I don't know.
I like the "Dog Catcher" from Marc Crafty Dog, as adopted by him and Gabe Suarez for pistol defensive training -- see "Die Less Often: Introduction to the Interface of Gun, Knife, and Empty Hand".
The Dog Catcher has the giant advantage of being able to stop, and reverse, many attacks when you are already behind in the game and taking only a short time to learn to the point that it is more effective than NOT having it.
Does it have disadvantages? Of course, but the benefit to cost ratio is very high for the Dog Catcher.
What about if the attack is even further along? You didn't see it. (The guy behind the door who attacked me was NOT a known threat, we were in the same Army unit and had never met nor exchanged any words nor even dirty looks.)
Suppose you don't deploy the DBMA Kali Fence nor get the Dog Catcher in position -- the knife is under, over, or through your guard.
Being able to relax, twist, and otherwise get your body flat to the blade is likely MUCH better than taking the stab or slash as a penetrating wound.
I can say from personal experience that even having the knife go merely UNDER the skin may not be very painful, very serious, nor very damaging.
[Band-aids for the little cuts, stitches for the big ones.]
I can -- quite literally -- LIVE with that.
Also, I have serious doubts that there are very many actual criminals who could cut Vlad.
Anyone can get unlucky, or lucky depending on your point of view so Vlad is not invulnerable, but my money would be on him with pretty good odds.
How would Vlad do against a master of the knife? No idea.
Oh, ok, I would probably give even money, and I would certainly take 2-1 odds.
[ How much would I bet? Hundreds not thousands.]
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and humble, too!
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Posted On:
9/13/2009 11:02pm
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Posted On:
9/23/2006 7:47am
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