Deadly Dojo

**hungryjoe** · Posted On: 5/30/2009 9:27pm

david r,

Please give more detail.

Have you trained with the man?

What are your qualifications to know what is legit, what is LARP and what is out and out BS?

What students have competed all over the world?

What teachers of Lord Utmost have you met?

**david r** · Posted On: 5/31/2009 5:10pm

i trained with him in ny and in ma what he taught has literly saved my ass while i was incarcerated.

ive met many of his teachers, zumar mayo, sam mcgee, leon wallace, peter uban, ronald duncan, some military group that came to visit while on leave i dont remeber their names but they were serious hand to hand, a lot of times we actually got to study with his teachers as they evaluated us. there was a spanish ninjutsu guy that came up from brooklyn for awhile to test some of the other students.

my rank under sensei is purple belt how can i judge i can judge by the fact what he taught worked and saved me. that he is well respected by the other martial artss that i have come in contact with.

i know of students who have been to hawaii, germany, japan, africa and jamaica for competition and most of them have come back winners. I have seen him compete and watched him win.

and i know students who have had to test there are in situations and they all are satisfied. this man let me live in his house with his family when me and my wife milly came from arizona. and did not charge us one penny. if any of his students have anything bad to say about him either they are on drugs or they have gone crazy this man would do anything for his students. He is the real deal.

**catfishaggie** · Posted On: 5/31/2009 6:59pm

Do you have any names of the students that competed so that we can look up their tournament records or do you know what tournaments that El competed in?

**danniboi07** · Posted On: 5/31/2009 7:32pm

Originally Posted by david r

I know Lord Utmost and I have personally seen him fight several people at ounce while protecting people and his students who were also fighting in the bronx when they were attacked by a street gang of over 20 people him, two male students and one female student faught them off they had chains bats and knives.

First and foremost I'd like to thank you for showing up to defend your instructor. This way it is not one sided jokes, but rather a discussion. If it is at all possible, would you be able to get your instructor to join in on the discussion. Just mind him to ignore the beginning few pages of jokes. The discussion begins here with you and hopefully him.

While your stories do sound interesting, we at Bullshido do not take personal anecdotes as evidence of an instructor's or a style's individual effectiveness. If you would like to show undeniable proof of how your teacher or his students fight, then please provide a video of any fights, competitions, or sparring sessions that you may have.

Originally Posted by david r

This man taught in st james community center for over 10 years for free in ny. I have seen him compete and win over and over again. And contrary to his Name The man has been humble, Nice and has never put a student out of his dojo for not paying tuition. if we cant afford he still teaches us. i know as a green belt i was competing against other schools black belts and i was winning most of the time.

I know other students who have competed all over the world from his school and they all have won against higher ranked students. He teaches a each one teach one class format and gives about 20 minutes of instruction for you to then work it on his own.

but what he does works and thats what counts.

In what style were you competing? How were these competitions run? What were the rules and conditions for victory?

Once again, I will say that personal anecdotes do not do much. Answering these questions and/or providing video of your and other competitions would be of great value in backing up your instructor, school and style.

**taters** · Posted On: 5/31/2009 10:36pm

The last name of El almost certainly designates this gentleman as a member of the Moorish Science Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_science), a syncretic and mystic faith founded in the early 1900's by a man named Timothy Drew aka Noble Drew Ali. Most male members of the Temple change the last name to either El or Bey. Most stop there, total name changes like Lord Utmost's are uncommon but not unheard of.

The Moorish Temple is the precursor to other modern african-american syncretic religious movements including the Nation of Islam and the 5% Nation, none of which should be confused with "actual" Islam, despite sharing very similar terminology. I've known several Temple members in my life, and although they are often very private about their faith, they are also serious about it. Most also displayed a level of humility not found on Mr. Utmost's myspace page. As for the Temple itself I take it no more or less seriously then any other religious movement.

I realize this post is not on topic for a martial arts forum, but if Mr Utmost is as serious as the other men I've known, serious enough to make the legal name change and take on the El, then the ways of Moorish Science will inform a lot of his character.

On another note, I would also like to ask what type of "Competition" you refer to, as this can mean vastly different things in the different "Martial Arts" communities. I once listened to an interview with a man whom was repeatedly referred to as a "Martial Arts" champion, yet never once divulged the nature of his "Championship", which Google revealed to be Tai Chi Push Hands. So please enlighten us, if you don't mind.

**david r** · Posted On: 6/03/2009 8:08am

we have all competed in KRANE, Naska, and USA ranked tournaments
point fighting, continuous fighting, forms, weapons forms, and weapons combat

last tournament i seen sensei perform in he took first in point fighting, continuous fighting, forms, musical forms, weapons forms and took second in weapons competition. I asked him about this thread and told him what people were thinking he told me "people are intitaled to their opinions if they want to know instead of speculate they are welcomed to come to the dojo free of charge and find out first hand then at least their opinion will have an actual basis"

he wont say anythng bad about his students, he says like any parent knows sometimes children rebel but if your solid and righteous they will eventually do whats right.

many other teachers from different backgrounds even teachers who dont particularily like my sensei but respect him. some have made speaches about not liking him but respecting him lol. have voted on his students respecting their skills (i have not had the honor) and they were inducted into one of the halls of fame.

sensei is a moorish minister and just to note his mothers name is Queen Mother Earth EL they call her mama EL and his fathers name is Lord Supreme Logic EL the call him pops. they are also moors. He's also a mason. and also has several degree's. That staff he carries and the ivory medallion around his neck are moorish symbols and are very ancient and passed down through moorish history. He also has done alot of work in the rap industry with different artists, and is into network marketing and i know he goes to the robert kiyosaki events. so that explains his myspace page for those who get the wrong mpression.

he doesnt hide anything he always says it is what it is and it does what it does. I know he's trained members of the nation of islam and the nation of gods n earths, as well as the moorish nation, FOI, FOA AND MUFTI.
he's been in their news papers and the articles were displayed in the old dojo. he's been given awards from mayors, governers and from two past presidents.

and as far as the student who was given his belt mr mathias margeson. that man deserved his belt more then any other student sensei has ever taught including over his own children, and ingridd too and posibly even over his wife who's studied with him since foreve and all the black belts agreed only mr mathias refuses to test he doesnt care aboutthe belt system.

enuff said

**danniboi07** · Posted On: 6/03/2009 11:17am

Originally Posted by david r

we have all competed in KRANE, Naska, and USA ranked tournaments
point fighting, continuous fighting, forms, weapons forms, and weapons combat

last tournament i seen sensei perform in he took first in point fighting, continuous fighting, forms, musical forms, weapons forms and took second in weapons competition. I asked him about this thread and told him what people were thinking he told me "people are intitaled to their opinions if they want to know instead of speculate they are welcomed to come to the dojo free of charge and find out first hand then at least their opinion will have an actual basis"

First, and foremost, I'd like to thank you for your willingness to speak to us. I'm most appreciative to your calm demeanor. Most students of people who come under our investigations come to our website to rant and yell rather than discuss, so once again thank you.

For clarity's sake, is this the KRANE you mentioned?
http://www.krane.org/

For those interested, the following is the rulebook used for their sparring
http://www.krane.org/About%20KRANE/R...k.htm#Sparring

For those interested, the following is the rulebook used in NASKA
http://www.naska.com/9-2009_NASKA_Rules.pdf

These organizations seem legit. Granted Bullshido doesn't look highly on point-sparring, however at least we know your school interacts with others under respectable governing bodies.

Originally Posted by david r

he doesnt hide anything he always says it is what it is and it does what it does.

Out of curiosity, what does he say his martial art is? I looked over the beginning of this thread and most of it was just lulz at the pictures on the website and the title of the dojo.

Based on the instructors you have listed it appears your instructor learned ninjitsu and goju ryu karate. (From Ronald Duncan http://wayofthewinds.com/bio.htm and Sam McGee http://harlemgojuassociation.org/grandmaster.shtm) I state this because throughout the thread, no style was explicitly listed.

The only serious claim against your instructor was from sicarii4512 saying that he hated the way the school was run. He claimed no gear and no instruction were given for sparring. While both KRANE and NASKA require safety equipment for competition sparring, can you tell us if your school requires this equipment for in-house sparring? How are the training sessions organized?

Honestly, from what I've seen so far, I don't smell Bullshido, but the claims of McDojoism might be worth investigating.

Otherwise, this should have probably been a YMAS thread.

**Dsimon3387** · Posted On: 6/03/2009 1:03pm

Originally Posted by danniboi07

First, and foremost, I'd like to thank you for your willingness to speak to us. I'm most appreciative to your calm demeanor. Most students of people who come under our investigations come to our website to rant and yell rather than discuss, so once again thank you.

For clarity's sake, is this the KRANE you mentioned?
http://www.krane.org/

For those interested, the following is the rulebook used for their sparring
http://www.krane.org/About%20KRANE/R...k.htm#Sparring

For those interested, the following is the rulebook used in NASKA
http://www.naska.com/9-2009_NASKA_Rules.pdf

These organizations seem legit. Granted Bullshido doesn't look highly on point-sparring, however at least we know your school interacts with others under respectable governing bodies.

Out of curiosity, what does he say his martial art is? I looked over the beginning of this thread and most of it was just lulz at the pictures on the website and the title of the dojo.

Based on the instructors you have listed it appears your instructor learned ninjitsu and goju ryu karate. (From Ronald Duncan http://wayofthewinds.com/bio.htm and Sam McGee http://harlemgojuassociation.org/grandmaster.shtm) I state this because throughout the thread, no style was explicitly listed.

The only serious claim against your instructor was from sicarii4512 saying that he hated the way the school was run. He claimed no gear and no instruction were given for sparring. While both KRANE and NASKA require safety equipment for competition sparring, can you tell us if your school requires this equipment for in-house sparring? How are the training sessions organized?

Honestly, from what I've seen so far, I don't smell Bullshido, but the claims of McDojoism might be worth investigating.

Otherwise, this should have probably been a YMAS thread.

danbo I don't think Duncan does Gojo Ryu. I am almost 100 certain of this. Duncan does traditionally cross train a lot of karate guys who come to him for weapons work. I got started with myteacher ( a student of Duncan) in this way many years back.

Peter Urbane was mentioned and Urbane is a legitime Gojo Ryu presence. This would be his line. Yamaguchi (the cat)? I am bad with names but this is the Goju connection.

**danniboi07** · Posted On: 6/03/2009 1:07pm

Originally Posted by Dsimon3387

danbo I don't think Duncan does Gojo Ryu. I am almost 100 certain of this. Duncan does traditionally cross train a lot of karate guys who come to him for weapons work. I got started with myteacher ( a student of Duncan) in this way many years back.

Yeah I should have put the term "respectively" in there, as Duncan's website shows he teaches Ninjitsu. That was my original intent.

Try reading as

Originally Posted by Danniboi07

Based on the instructors you have listed it appears your instructor learned ninjitsu and goju ryu karate from Ronald Duncan and Sam McGee respectively. I state this because throughout the thread, no style was explicitly listed.