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  1. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 2:02pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds you have the same problem with grappling I do.

    When I asked this same question to my first BJJ instructor, he told me the following:

    "Roll More"
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 3:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Macho, would you agree with what I said in my post? Also has anyone checked the website www.sportspecific.com?
    Yeah, I totally agree with that one. That site is pretty good btw.

    I don't subscribe with the "roll more" philosophy. Yes, it will work in the long run, but that does not mean it is the most effective. If that were the case, then one would not see players jogging and lifting weights, which they do.

    Just rolling more is no different from doing squats to strenghten a weak vastus medialis (the one that keeps the kneecap in place).

    It may work in some pple, it will certainly and definitely won't work for most, it may even be worse for quite a few.)

    Goju, have you considered looking into your diet by supplementing by aminoacids? I'm actually planning to write something on that later. You are doing a demanding sport that demands a lot for your body to recover. Good food and vitamins won't do. You may need aminoacids... more on that later.

    I have a problem with rolling, too. I "gass out". And this was surprising for me at first because I jog regularly (2 miles road or 4 miles on treadmill.) But the feeling of gassing out is not because of poor cardio, but because of inadequate anaerobic capacity for the sport at hand. And by anaerobic capacity I mean the ability to do continuous work at 90+MHR. And grappling is basically that.

    I was always wondering how to cope with that problem because just running and doing weights wasn't doing **** for me. Then I saw that youtube 24+minute workout by El Guapo. Then, I had an epiphany. Freaking jogging and pushing weights won't cut it.

    Notice how Bas jumps from one intense exercise to the next, each done in 30 seconds. He is continously pushing the MHR with no breaks with a combo of aerobic and anaerobic activities. Whatever we do, it got to mimic that intensity in MHR for a long period of time (10-20 mins).

    IMO, alternating jogging at 70-80MHR (1-2 minutes) with short sprints at 90+MHR (ie. going balls out for 30-60 secs), clean jerks, non-stop combos of alternating exercises, continous bodyweight exercises until failure, anything that forces you to go 90+MHR should do the trick.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 3:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Yeah, I totally agree with that one. That site is pretty good btw.

    I don't subscribe with the "roll more" philosophy. Yes, it will work in the long run, but that does not mean it is the most effective. If that were the case, then one would not see players jogging and lifting weights, which they do.

    Just rolling more is no different from doing squats to strengthen a weak vastus medialis (the one that keeps the kneecap in place).

    It may work in some pple, it will certainly and definitely won't work for most, it may even be worse for quite a few.)

    Goju, have you considered looking into your diet by supplementing by aminoacids? I'm actually planning to write something on that later. You are doing a demanding sport that demands a lot for your body to recover. Good food and vitamins won't do. You may need aminoacids... more on that later.

    I have a problem with rolling, too. I "gass out". And this was surprising for me at first because I jog regularly (2 miles road or 4 miles on treadmill.) But the feeling of gassing out is not because of poor cardio, but because of inadequate anaerobic capacity for the sport at hand. And by anaerobic capacity I mean the ability to do continuous work at 90+MHR. And grappling is basically that.

    I was always wondering how to cope with that problem because just running and doing weights wasn't doing **** for me. Then I saw that youtube 24+minute workout by El Guapo. Then, I had an epiphany. Freaking jogging and pushing weights won't cut it.

    Notice how Bas jumps from one intense exercise to the next, each done in 30 seconds. He is continously pushing the MHR with no breaks with a combo of aerobic and anaerobic activities. Whatever we do, it got to mimic that intensity in MHR for a long period of time (10-20 mins).

    IMO, alternating jogging at 70-80MHR (1-2 minutes) with short sprints at 90+MHR (ie. going balls out for 30-60 secs), clean jerks, non-stop combos of alternating exercises, continous bodyweight exercises until failure, anything that forces you to go 90+MHR should do the trick.
    Very interresting stuff

    I don't take amino acids the only things I take are chronotin and claucausimine (spelling?)

    The Bas work out is interesting sounds a lot like the CSW work out (which fricking kills me I have never made it through one class with out having to stop)

    They do just that . What they also do is make you change levels when warming up meaning as we run, we alternate and do scuttle type of running, (going sideways like a crab) duck walks and then sprints where you go as quickly as you can followed by high jumps. Then two man push ups. fireman carries and two man leg crunches then right into pad work going for 5 minute rounds. Only after this at about the 45 minute mark in class do we start doing anytechniques (I am a wreck at this point.)

    I find at the end of the warm up I can barely stand. It's not so much that I am out of breath (though I am) but that I have no energy in my legs like my muscles aren't getting enough oxygen.

    That's why I was thinking a low weight hi rep regime in the gym would help train my muscles for better oxygen conversion.

    I'll check out the amino acids.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 3:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    supplementation

    Ok, I broke my reply in two pieces because it would cover two pics about which I've kind of made some observations. Goju, I suggested aminoacids because that's worked for me beautifully.

    For like 4 months I was feeling tired and burned out. I tried everything. Finally I got into this nutrition forum, described what I was doing and how I was feeling, and ta-da, they suggested aminoacids. This is one thing that was missing from my diet. I was taking my shakes, NO2 and creatine, but no aminoacids and glutamine. This was two weeks ago.

    Right on the second day when I started taking aminoacids and glutamine, there was a major improvement. I no longer felt tired or burned out, and I can actually sleep better. Before, I was lucky if I could sleep for being so tired. And even if I slept 8 hours, it felt like if I didn't.

    I know it sounds like an informecial, but I truly believe in this, and I don't think this is mental or some sort of placebo effect. My weight will always swing from 160 to 145lbs anytime I would pump up my cardio. So far, it's remained at 158 and I felt much more rested and stronger than before.

    So now, **** the NO2 and the creatine. Aminoacids. If we exercise beyond a certain threshold and we are over 30, we need aminoacids so that the body can recover and repair itself.

    Nutrition is king. Anything else is secondary.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 3:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    I find at the end of the warm up I can barely stand. It's not so much that I am out of breath (though I am) but that I have no energy in my legs like my muscles aren't getting enough oxygen.

    That's why I was thinking a low weight hi rep regime in the gym would help train my muscles for better oxygen conversion.

    I'll check out the amino acids.
    That's exactly what I started to go through a while ago. I was just drained. This past 6 weeks I've been working the graveyard shift, so I've taken the time to concentrate on that. Interval training that mimics the CSW warmup and rolling should do the trick. And the aminoacids and glutamine will certainly help you in recovering.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 3:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    That's exactly what I started to go through a while ago. I was just drained. This past 6 weeks I've been working the graveyard shift, so I've taken the time to concentrate on that. Interval training that mimics the CSW warmup and rolling should do the trick. And the amino acids and glutamine will certainly help you in recovering.
    Is there a particular brand of amino acids and glutamine you recommend?

    I will try this out. I am completely immune to placebo effects as I am a whiny *****.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 4:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    Is there a particular brand of amino acids and glutamine you recommend?

    I will try this out. I am completely immune to placebo effects as I am a whiny *****.
    For aminoacids, I'm currently taking Twinlab AminoFuel ( http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp...entPage=family ). It has 10 servings. Taking them Monday-Friday, that should last for two weeks. After a while, you may find that you don't need to take it everyday, so the cost will be less.

    I also have a bottle of cheap, generic aminoacid pills (I'll post the brand when I get home), which I'll use when I finish the AminoFuel bottle. I think its Sundown. The later is cheaper than the liquid form, but has less aminoacids content. If I still see the same benefits, I'll stick to the pills.

    For glutamine, I was using the powdered version by Twinlab (http://www.physicallyelite.com/store...duct_id=12828). That one has about 25 servings (about a month). If price is a concern, I would go with the aminoacids alone.

    Twinlab have decent products, not top of the line, but good and not expensive. However, stay the heck away from GNC. Those people are vampires that will suck your soul. Better to check a generic health store or a gym. GNC is fucking evil.

    I actually had both products sitting abandoned in the kitchen. I got them waaaay long ago, but I was taking a lot of other crap (shakes, NO2, creatine) and my stomach couldn't take more of it. NO2 and creatine did work for a while, but it's been in the last half year that I was just burned out.

    It never occurred to me that I was neglecting the amino thing :tard:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 9:48pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Isn't that only true up within a narrow band of performance ? otherwise I would be able to increase the number of pushups I can do just by upping my max bench, or increase how far I can run before I gas out by doing high resistance leg exercises.
    Well, yes, yes and maybe. Increasing your maximal strength isn't typically the best way to increase, say, your eight rep max. However, it will work to an extent and is, in my cocksucking/motherfucking opinion, more valuable.

    Beginning martial artists can do what they like, and will probably get a lot of benefit out of high-rep sets as they develop the fundamental endurance required by their discipline. However, I'm somewhat against this approach for non-newbs, as high-endurance, low-intensity is a way to reinforce iffy technique, whereas short bursts of power (with lots of relaxation in between) are complementary to good technique.
  9. sdave is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2006 12:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lots of good info and suggestions here.

    A few points:

    Holding a position under tension as long as possible is an example of the asynchronous contraction of muscle fibers. Most of you are likely aware that individual fibers completely contract when stimulated, so you may have wondered why you don't shove your glass through the back of your head every time you try to take a drink, or why you can hold light things up longer than heavy things.

    ALL of the fibers in a given muscle don't conract under a typical load. Generally, for lighter objects, relatively few are required. When those are fatigued and have to relax, other fibers in the same muscle are recruited. This can go on for quite some time if few fibers are needed. Heavier loads obviously require more fibers, leaving fewer "in reserve" and thus reducing the length of time the muscle can be used without rest.

    Also, nutrition is indeed King. As I may have mentioned before, amino acids are ESSENTIAL for myriad processes in the body every minute of the day. If at any point those amino acids are unavailable, the body has to rob its biggest amino acid warehouse, muscles.

    Thus, amino acids should not be thought of so much as "anabolic" or "muscle building", but rather as "anti-catabolic" or "muscle sparing". Constant intake of quality protein gives the body a source of amino acids other than those nifty muscles. Glutamine's popularity as a supplement is due to its high demand in the body.

    Keep in mind that unlike fats and carbs, there's no convenient storage area for proteins except those muscles that most guys would like to keep full. Given the choice between big arms and nitrogen metabolism, wouldn't you know the damn human body would go with the silly metabolic processes and eat up those biceps...
    Last edited by sdave; 9/14/2006 12:12am at .
    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    That is exactly what I meant sdave. You are dead on, as usual.
  10. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2006 7:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, it seems like everyone has a problem with gassing, eh?

    Hm.

    Maybe that's a mechanism which prevents you from...oh, I dunno...dying?

    Strength training's MAIN benefit is injury prevention. As El Macho touched on, rolling isn't going to help shore up your weak links....PHYSICALLY. This isn't a matter of a stronger medialis improving anything about one's game other than making sure an acute problem with it is going to sideline you.

    Short of endeavors which in themselves have considerable (or complete) overlap with gym movements, your basic performance isn't going to profoundly change unless, as Anthony puts it, you simply ROLL MORE. And that's relative to yourself. If someone else is outpacing you at every turn, given the same approximate experience, you should start thinking about blaming your parents.
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