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  1. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 10:48am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I said, I was in an honest to goodness, big-ass armed fight, and none of the **** any of you are peddling would have worked.

    The big difference is that there was none of this, "Keep your hands up, push/drag" business. There were people running at you with **** in your hands, trying to hit you with it. If they hit you, they kept hitting you. If they didn't hit you, they ran away to go and hit somebody else.

    Actually, the wacky thing is that in that situation, aikido style footwork is probably the closest thing to stuff that worked for me. Funky wristlocks wouldn't have worked but the angling and big steps were a lot like what worked. Maybe the kind of movement you see in American football, too.

    I like this answer because it is unsatisfying for everyone.
  2. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 11:02am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simonthesong
    There is only really one reason why I think I can still argue my point. In fact, it's the same reason I've been using all along, but its possible I didn't set it out right: I don't believe we can authentically recreate the training setting I described--that of continual, decades long training as a full time profession, with frequent actual fights--in modern times. Fighters don't view their system as a lifetime calling or as some kind of class system, or often rely on it for survival.
    Mmm. The international-level judo players I know train most days each week for a number of hours each day, and many of them have kept this up for many years. They are devoted to their fighting. If you're serious about getting to the Olympics, you'd damn well better view it as your calling.

    On the other hand, members of medieval warrior classes generally had other responsibilities above and beyond learning how to fight - most of them had managerial responsibilities over a fief or estate, and the poorer of them often had to fall to in working the land themselves. This is certainly true of the European knighthood and the samurai. There were exceptions in religious fighting orders such as the Knights Hospitaller or the Knights Templar, but there large parts of the day were likely taken up by their religious pursuits. Did they train as much as a modern full-time fighter? Possibly. Did they train more? I'm sceptical. Did they spend more time on exclusively unarmed stuff? The answer must almost certainly be no.

    It's been an interesting discussion, though, and thanks for your patience.
  3. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 11:03am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Bloody noses are t3h fight ender?
    If you conveniently omit the punches that caused them, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    I think the forum's traditionally light-handed approach to moderation has become untenable.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 11:24am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As was mentioned, the samurai and other fuedal warrior classes often had administrative duties that occupied much more of their time than training.

    Monks, even martial ones, spend most of their days in the pursuit of their religionm as well as their own livelihood. There might be at most 4-6 hours a day for practice of martial arts, which means no more than the average full contact fighter. Thus, the argument that they would have more time to figure out how to make low-percentage moves like pressure points work is based on false presumptions.
  5. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 11:35am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    If you conveniently omit the punches that caused them, yes.
    Well yes, in a fight, it's an excellent idea to have a big kyokushin practioner stand your asses up after a smattering of failed takedowns so you get a chance to haul off again.
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Well yes, in a fight, it's an excellent idea to have a big kyokushin practioner stand your asses up after a smattering of failed takedowns so you get a chance to haul off again.
    It's called round 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    I think the forum's traditionally light-handed approach to moderation has become untenable.
  7. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 1:35pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The most defining factor however would be conditioning. The only reason an average MMA fighter would do better in my opinion is that he has taken the time to acquire the conditioning and athletic skill that is not developed in most TMA today.

    Secondly, soldiers have always used the most efficient weapons available to them on the battlefield. Since firearms were not available then skill with any of the following weapons would be useful:

    1) Sword fighting
    2) Archery
    3) Halberd/spear/long pointy stick
    4) Horseback riding

    Apart from that this “litmus test” is worthless. Unarmed skills have never been the deciding factor on the battlefield since man has been able to make weapons.
    Last edited by rw4th; 9/13/2006 1:38pm at .
  8. Simonthesong is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 5:06pm


     Style: Hung Gar Kuen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist

    On the other hand, members of medieval warrior classes generally had other responsibilities above and beyond learning how to fight - most of them had managerial responsibilities over a fief or estate, and the poorer of them often had to fall to in working the land themselves. This is certainly true of the European knighthood and the samurai. There were exceptions in religious fighting orders such as the Knights Hospitaller or the Knights Templar, but there large parts of the day were likely taken up by their religious pursuits. Did they train as much as a modern full-time fighter? Possibly. Did they train more? I'm sceptical. Did they spend more time on exclusively unarmed stuff? The answer must almost certainly be no.
    This is an effective refutation of my argument. We can accept that in the bad old days, people were no better trained then they are today. I would've have no trouble accepting that if an olympic fencer were to go fight a duel with D'Artagnan, he might easily hold his own or win. So why did I think otherwise regarding ancient TMA versus MMA? Bullshido!

    Except for Wudan Shan...they are teh dogs bollocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    It's been an interesting discussion, though, and thanks for your patience.
    Likewise.
  9. Matsufubu is offline
    Matsufubu's Avatar

    To the Bat Pole!

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 5:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by rw4th
    Apart from that this “litmus test” is worthless. Unarmed skills have never been the deciding factor on the battlefield since man has been able to make weapons.
    I think that's pretty much the only conclusion that was ever going to reached on this thread.
    Mr Politically Correct GIJoe6186:
    Fat people disgust me in every way imaginable. I was at Freindly's with my girl tonight and saw a bunch of fat fuckers. I felt sorry for the pavement they were killing and the people who had to see them. .
  10. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2006 7:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Mmm. The international-level judo players I know train most days each week for a number of hours each day, and many of them have kept this up for many years. They are devoted to their fighting. If you're serious about getting to the Olympics, you'd damn well better view it as your calling.

    On the other hand, members of medieval warrior classes generally had other responsibilities above and beyond learning how to fight - most of them had managerial responsibilities over a fief or estate, and the poorer of them often had to fall to in working the land themselves. This is certainly true of the European knighthood and the samurai. There were exceptions in religious fighting orders such as the Knights Hospitaller or the Knights Templar, but there large parts of the day were likely taken up by their religious pursuits. Did they train as much as a modern full-time fighter? Possibly. Did they train more? I'm sceptical. Did they spend more time on exclusively unarmed stuff? The answer must almost certainly be no.

    It's been an interesting discussion, though, and thanks for your patience.
    It is perfectly possible to train 5 or 6 days a week. It is not possible to train serious Judo practice for 8 hours per day. The spine can't take that much randori.

    Lifting/stretching/watching tapes doesn't equal Judo practice.

    Profighters and high level competitors usually have a couple of hours of training at the most. The idea is to keep conditioning high, skill level high, and avoid injury.

    You cannot avoid injury if you are doing that much randori.
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