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  1. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 6:24am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Helio Gracie interview from 1997 on Google Video

    (I say the following with the greatest respect for BJJ)

    Hi, I was over at mmaforums and this interview from 1997 was linked to:
    http://video.google.com/videosearch?...w+-+BJJ+Origin

    I watched it and it got me thinking about some of the points he made:

    I note that at minute 19 Helio discusses how Carlos's son was selling instructor certificates to anyone who bought 4 of his BJJ tapes.

    About his famous fight with Kimura: He says that although Kimura beat him, that he Helio had the superior jiujitsu, and that Kimura's jiujitsu (he uses the term jiujitsu to refer to judo techniques) "was like a beginner" compared to his. This is bizarre, seeing as he was thrown many times on very soft mats, got his arm broken, and has even admitted being unconscious but revived. He has said elsewhere that he “was like a child against Kimura” and wanted to see how he would beat him in order to learn, and that he never expected to win.

    I also note that on this website:(http://www.gracieacademy.com/helio_gracie.html) they say that the difference between Helio and Kimura was 80 pounds. However, a look on other sites says that Helio was about 160 - 170 pounds and Kimura was about 180 - 190 pounds. They were both about the same height, Helio slightly taller.

    Helio then goes on to claim that it is not possible for a BJJ person who does the art like him to be beaten “except by accident”. This seems remarkable as on wikipedia there is a list of Helio's career fights, and to summarise: he won 3 out of 12 fights. (3wins, 6 draws, 3 losses.)
    (Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helio_Gracie#Fight_career)

    I also note that in the interview Helio mentions that he beat Kato but not that he initially drew with him and requested a re-match which he then won by counter choking from the bottom in order to face Kimura. (Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helio_Gracie#Fight_career)

    Throughout the interview Helio doesnt seem to give judo any credit. He avoids saying that his style descends from judo, claiming the title of grand master of his system, and credit for what makes it work. He says that Carlos’s juijitsu was strength based. He doesn’t mention that Carlos learned from a Judoka (Mitsuyo Maeda) who "thought of judo as the ultimate form of self-defense" (reference: http://www.bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html) and was famous for defeating western opponents who were far larger and stronger than he was. Maeda was a MMA pioneer. Helio steadfastly uses the term juijitsu instead of judo when referring to judoka.

    About his initial instruction Helio says he only learned from watching Carlos's classes for a while and memorising them and he started instructing from the age of 16. I wonder what people on this forum would say if a new poster were to arrive and claim they were doing this at their dojo? Therefore that they taught something that they had only observed from the sidelines and not been a direct participant in.

    I also read there are critics of his statements: "Kimura’s fight with Helio, Mehdi says, "was a joke". Kimura agreed to stall for 10 minutes, Mehdi says, to give the fans their money's worth and begin fighting after that." (http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm).

    Mehdi is an ex-student of Helio's and Carlos's academy who more recently taught Rolls Gracie judo. He also accuses the Gracies of lying about their brawling exploits and about the fundamental dishonesty of calling what they do juijitsu rather than judo, as it is judo they are doing and not a traditional juijitsu style.

    I agree this has caused a lot of confusion over at the MMA forums as to what juijitsu is compared to judo. Some people there think that traditional juijitsu and Brazilian juijitsu are the same thing! BJJ came from judo which revised and screened the ineffective moves out of traditional juijitsu, developed the judo-gi, the mats, and the modern ranking system. As Jon Bluming said 80% of juijitsu moves dont work and the 20% that do are in judo.

    I also note that in the newspapers after the Helio vs Kimura fight in Brazil they were saying Helio was victorious although he lost: (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...io+Gracie+1951)

    Anyway I just thought I'd post a link to that interview video and see what people think. Hey at least the source is available. So what do you think are there inconsistencies in Helio’s stories from this interview (and other sources)?
  2. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 8:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not a Helio nutrider as he seems to be doing a perfectly good job of riding his own.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 8:49am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He does says some odd ****, but then again, he is a Gracie. I mean, I respect him for what he's done to MA. I'd put him next to Kano and Oyama, and I think deep down he is an honest man... BUT... like lots of the Gracies, he does say some weird, self-nutriding, self-felating ****.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 8:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd be very surprised if his bothered anyone, the Gracies arrogance is legendary ans well known.
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 6:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's a dirty brazillian. WTF do you expect?

    Wanna buy a shitty patch for 20 bucks?
  6. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 7:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DO NOT QUESTION THE GREAT GOD HELIO, LEST HIS DISEMBODIED FLOATING HEAD DESCEND UPON YOU!

    helio 'fought' at 160-170? i always thought he was like five foot negative four, which would make that weight rather unexpected.
  7. mmacount123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 9:48pm


     Style: martial

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the interview is a repost, but, however, you have raised some different points. It was agreed that if Helio lasted a certain amount of time with Kimura, then Kimura will admit defeat.
  8. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/09/2006 6:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mmacount123
    the interview is a repost, but, however, you have raised some different points. It was agreed that if Helio lasted a certain amount of time with Kimura, then Kimura will admit defeat.
    Is there a non-gracie source for this? I honestly would not be surprised if Royce said something like this in a few years time about his fight with hughes.
  9. chaosexmachina is offline
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    Unexpected Elbow

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2006 3:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA/Pankration

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Although it is judo now, when it was taught to the Gracies it was still called jiu-jitsu. Semantics, really.
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

    El Guapo says dance!
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/09/2006 3:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^ I dunno. I understand that Maeda taught they Gracies jujutsu (or jiu jitsu in the way that it got spelled). Although being having a background in Judo, among other things, (again, this is what I've understood), he either called himself a JJ practitioner rather than a Judoka (or pple called him that).

    The name of Judo was already in place by that time, but I have the suspicions Maeda taught the Gracies an amalgamation of newaza from that time plus some other jujutsu-based concotion. Who knows.

    The truth is like a fish, swimming in murky, ****-colored waters, made even murkier by colorful snippets of Gracie mythology. ****, I feel fucking poetic!!!!
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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