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  1. hl1978 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:16pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by devil
    I know what you're saying. I'm not suggesting you have to be some dumb-ass meathead to be a fighter. It's just that excessive overthinking is, to me, one of the biggest indicators of crap martial arts, ie: BBT, Aikido.

    There's nothing wrong with giving yourself a mental edge. But (A) is kata really the best way to do that, and (B) is that really where you need to be spending your time?

    Do you have a solid, well-rounded game? Is your striking sharp? Do you work well in the clinch? Do you have solid throws and takedowns? Do you have dependable takedown defense? Do you have a slick ground game? How's your strength and cardio?

    If you are weak in any of these areas, I'd say you will be better off spending your time working on those areas, rather than practicing ANY kata.

    If you're doing all those things and body mechanics is what you want to spend your non-training time thinking about, go for it, I guess. But even then, I think you'd be better off visualizing yourself using the techniques that you're practicing.

    Oh perhaps I wasn't clear. I probably spend maybe 10% of my time doing kata. Most of this stuff is trained via partner drills/shieldwork and bodyweight exercises.

    Just recently I have been experimenting with performing the kata with the same things you are looking for when doing all the above. I'm also just wondering out loud if that is how kata is supposed to have been trained, as I haven't heard anyone give anything more than lipservice to the idea.

    I agree you are better off visualizing yourself doing the techniques you are practicing. The sort of training advocated by Upyu apparently gives you a bit more awareness of what is going on in your body, which when I wrestled in the past and did judo wasn't nearly as aware of.
  2. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Truth is something of substance. You could say, "The technique's bollocks because of X," or that "You could do it out of the kata and not waste your time on it with Y," but you haven't done either of these things.

    Me, I'd say that it's better traying this out with a bag and pads to se how it compares. In my experience the sinking elbow is a good way to add a little bit more power in a short distance.

    I'd say that I don't like sanchin because it teaches counterproductive habits, like tensing antagonist muscles when moving, even though you want those mostly relaxed to that they don't put a break on agonists (the muscles actually doing to work). It's not great for your blood pressure either.

    You're the only person who wasn't able to grasp my point. I think everyone else did, despite the fact that they may disagree with me.

    Let me reiterate for you. There's nothing inherently bad about Sanchin kata. If you already know how to fight, Sanchin won't make you a weaker fighter. Like all kata, it is largely a waste of time, in my opinion, because it is an abstract training method. I believe direct, straightforward training methods are more productive for producing capable fighters. I don't know how to break it down any simpler for you.
  3. hl1978 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:21pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    i remember seeing a irl demo of a bunch of guys doing a "sanchin" kata and thought "wow, these guys would get fucked up in a fight with that kind of ****"

    then i realised it was just interpretive dance not fighting and clapped with everyone else

    I always thought of sanchin as a conditioning exercise, just one with lots of people striking you and you dont fight back. Even when looking at it as some sort of body mechanics exercise, I dont think people will apply the stancework taught in it to such an extreme.

    I agree with another poster that the muscular tension involved seems counter productive, but the muscular tension from the orientation of the arms, "may" be usefull. From bag work and pad work it seems it might be.
  4. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:29pm

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    [QUOTE=hl1978] I'm also just wondering out loud if that is how kata is supposed to have been trained, as I haven't heard anyone give anything more than lipservice to the idea.


    Okay, but my feeling is this:

    1. Don't do kata. There are better ways to spend your training time.

    2. If you're going to do kata, do it the way you want to. Don't worry about the way it's "supposed" to be trained. It doesn't mean ****, anyway. You can't **** it up any worse. Maybe you found "the real kata". Start teaching some seminars like George Dillman.
  5. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:48pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by devil
    You're the only person who wasn't able to grasp my point. I think everyone else did, despite the fact that they may disagree with me.
    Uh no. I just thought your point was totally uninteresting. Do you really think that "Kata is useless!" is some radical, substantive statement nobody here's been exposed to before?
  6. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Uh no. I just thought your point was totally uninteresting. Do you really think that "Kata is useless!" is some radical, substantive statement nobody here's been exposed to before?
    Radical? No. New? Nope. True? Ah, yeah.
  7. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 2:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Uh no. I just thought your point was totally uninteresting. Do you really think that "Kata is useless!" is some radical, substantive statement nobody here's been exposed to before?

    It's always important to stress the fundamentals.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 3:59pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it was Asia who said something to the effect of, "Kata is only useless to those who don't know what they're talking about."

    Of coruse, while including those who are quick to say "Kata is useless" as being fools...I would also include more than 90% of the people who say kata is useful in the "not knowing what they're talking about" clause.
  9. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 4:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DerAuslander, what's your opinion of Sanchin regarding the original topic?
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2006 4:24pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Truthfully, I'm not quite sure what to say. I don't practice Sanchin, as all the kata in my system are descended from Shorin-ryu.

    I know it is a form meant primarily for conditioning, but that doesn't mean it can't have fighting applications.

    As HL said, pictures would be helpful, video better.
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