9/22/2006 5:34pm, #111
Originally Posted by sochin101Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Lincolnshire, England
- No gym currently.
9/22/2006 8:01pm, #112
- Join Date
- Jan 2004
- Aunkai, Tokyo
My take on Sanchin Kata??
Its not something to help you get in the "zone" of things.
Its not something you do to simply "workout" the core, or develop flexibility, etc.
It is however an extremely rigorous way of developing a certain kind of bodyskill.
One that you can"t develop by simply stretching, lifting weights, or hitting bags.
This body skill then has to be put back into daily movement. It quite literally rewires the way you "naturally" move.
In this sense I agree with Virus's assesment that bunkai is crap.
All the other kata rely on the bodyskill developed in sanchin, and work on polishing movement within that context.
Take a look at how Oyama Mas moves in videos of his later years...he moves completely different from say Filio or other prominent kyokushin guys.
If you have this "bodyskill" I'd say a lot of people would look at the cheesy one step sparring crap,and all the other "craptastic" traditional training methods in a different light.
9/23/2006 12:36am, #113
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
FeelingsOriginally Posted by Upyu
It's not really dynamic tension, at least not the way I do it. There is some tension, but it's more along the lines of using some muscle tensing in the wrists and hands to create a feeling of pressure in my arms and upper back. I'll cover this more in a bit.
I think of sanchin (and the other southern shaolin derived conditioning forms) as conditioning the body to do three things:
1. Generate more power in a small space using only a few joints (i.e. the one inch punch or the double hand shove you see at the end of sanchin). Notice in the Uechi video when the senior teacher is sparring with his student. There are a few times that he simply steps forward with a palm heel and knocks the guy back. Oyama Mas does something similar too in the sparring video of him that's on youtube.
2. Unify the upper body so that when you move forward and hit something, there are no weak links in the chain, i.e. the full force of your forward step is translated into the hands. This should also let you, when pushed hard, feel the force pass through your body.
3. Create the ability to move nontelegraphically, i.e. in such a way that when you grip up with someone, they cannot feel "anticipation" before you attempt to redirect/throw them.This is much harder I think. See aikido's "tenchinage" for what I'm talking about, _in terms of the principle and not the application for fighting_.
Plyometrics: I can't say at this point. I notice that the sanchin-type practice has increased my ability to do things like double clap pushups. This is based on adding the pressure feeling to my regular exertion when I do the pushup. It's a lot more obvious with lower body plyo (such as squat jumps) but that's beyond the scope of this discussion of sanchin, so I'll leave it for another time.
Boxers: Well I can say that it is different but at this point I'm not good enough at it to use it as my exclusive movement for hitting. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But my feeling is, it's different. Though you can add the upper body snap to the regular boxing hip rotation and then you end up doing what BL was doing...I think. I still can't do it fluidly. Probably shouldn't go into that either.
Devil made a very good point about choreography and his though that it was foolish to worry too much about hand positioning etc. I'd agree with that actually. When karate was first brought to Okinawa it wasn't taught in giant classes with whole rows of people screaming "osu" and moving against a count. So the kata all had variations. It was only when the Japanese Karate Association and the pre-war militarists got ahold of karate that things got "standardized." Actually the only reason I can see to worry about the position of the hands/wrists is that by changing the stretch in the arms you can change how much of a feeling of pressure you have in the arms and upper back. So it's not a matter of someone saying "this is the way" but more a matter of self-experimentation.
At this point a number of you may be asking "wtf is he talking about, if he's saying there's a feeling of pressure but there's not total isometric contraction?"
Goju_Joe mentioned the very important fact that Yamaguchi Gogen was a pretty serious yoga practitioner. There's corroboration of that here:
The best way to demonstrate what I mean by "pressure" is by showing a process by which you can also develop this feeling, since it's not something I can measure or show with scientific instruments _at this time_. That's a key comment. I AM NOT saying this is not measurable by science, or is not a regular explainable phenomenon. I just don't know what it is. I am open to investigating this with FMRI, motion capture, EEG or radioactive tracers in the blood , but I lack the facilities or the expertise to do that. If you don't know what at least 2 or 3 of the things I just mentioned are, don't even fucking think about telling me I'm not being scientific enough, because, frankly, you don't know jack **** enough about modern neuroscience or physiology to even be able to talk about science.
Onwards...so if you take a look at the yoga position "downward facing dog"
Once you get into the full posture, if you experiment with your breathing while staying as relaxed as possible eventually you'll feel that the the expanding and contraction of your body created by your breathing, changes the amount of pressure you feel in the palms of your hands (from the ground) as well as the feeling of pressure _inside the arms and shoulders. It will also change the feelings of pressure in your legs and at the foot-ground interface, assuming you are flexible enough to have your heels touch the ground. (took me a year or so). You will have to build up the muscular endurance to reach this point, which can take a few weeks. that is, you have to be strong enough to hang out in the posture long enough to feel what's happening in your body. Hardcore yoga peeps call this "prana" and that's fine they can call it wtf they want but to me it's just a feeling, and not some metaphysical thing that involves channelling the power of the universe.
Okay so on to the breathing:
Basically there are two schools of thought on breathing. Some yoga ppl say that you should always breathe "abdominally." This does not mean you actually put air in your stomach. Obviously not. What it does mean is that when you inhale, you let your stomach muscles expand, and when you exhale it flattens toward your back. Your chest does not rise and fall much when you do this.
The second school of thought is that you should always keep a flat stomach. This is a pilates thing that Goju_Joe may be familiar with. For the non-pilates ppl, the flat stomach is the feeling you get if you put your fingers on spot where your inner thights meet your pelvis. When you do that and cough, those are the muscles you keep flat. If you do this, you flatten the stomach muscles toward the spine, and therefore when you breathe your chest will expand and contract.
If you get into the downward dog posture, then alternate the types of breathing you do in cycles (flat stomach/stomach expansion) you will begin to eventually feel the sensations I have outlined above.
Once you do that you will feel how what you are doing is feeling how the weight (mass times gravity) of your body is distributed, and how your breathing changes that.
The weight of the body is simply a force (f=ma) and of course you can create (some) force on/in your body (i'm not sure about the exact terminology here, nor how it works exactly) through muscular tension. The next step, once you can find the feeelings of pressure in downward dog is to recreate those feelings while standing up. You can do this by playing around with the tension created when you extend or contract your arms, flex your wrists, open your hands and do things like...make those weird hand positions (crane beak, sword hand, leopard paw, etc etc) you see in Southern Shaolin and karate (esp Okinawan karate, as seen in the videos I posted).
Now take those feelings you can create in your arms and upper back, and add it into your sanchin. You do that, and you will see exactly why/how it is a set of movements to train the feeling/power in the z-axis (forward/back) as well as the arm dropping motion. (y-axis)
Extrapolating from there, you can look at any other "traditional" kung fu or karate form/kata/set that a style considers "basic" and see how you could potentially use it to perform the type of conditioning I have outlined in this post. For example, take a look at southern mantis, wing chun or isshin ryu karate.
Last edited by wackamole; 9/23/2006 12:45am at .
9/23/2006 12:16pm, #114
The longer you waste your time on this crap, the progressivley harder it'll be to acknowledge you've done so.
The time is now.
9/23/2006 1:45pm, #115
Originally Posted by Kein Haar
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
Amen, brother! **** this thread. The longer I sit hear listening to you bastards stretch and stretch to find justifications for doing dumb ****, the more I feel like I'm at MAP. Sanchin is fucking silly. It's a stupid thing to do, even just as an exercise. Why do you need to stand pidgeon-toed like you're trying not to piss yourself in order to get exercise. I repeat - it's FUCKING SILLY! But carry on with your weak-ass arguments if you want. I'm out, bitches.
9/23/2006 10:51pm, #116
- Join Date
- Jan 2004
- Aunkai, Tokyo
Wackamole, nice post. Youre spot on about the pressure/tension relations I think.
If you can translate those same "connections" to your ground game, I think you'll find that getting subs isnt so difficult. Its how I was able to walk into Ricksons' axis academy here in Tokyo and submit several blues and a couple of purples with relative ease on my first two sessions.
I'll be posting some exercises soon in the article section if you're interested. They run along the lines of what sanchin develops, but its even more simplified and rigorous.
9/24/2006 6:54am, #117
Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Basic Self-Defence
how do I shadowbox/practice SPAWL by myself?
OK, having tried it I end up falling down. Again and again.
If I don't sprawl, but do some crappy bending over with legs spread (*cough*) and thinking "spawl", then I am practicing badly.
This question goes to Goju-Joe, or maybe Devil (some quotes here in goju's post confusing me)
9/24/2006 8:30am, #118
Originally Posted by Dirty Rooster
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Improv comedy
It's a conditiong excercise to build strength and flexability in your hips and to work the spead in which you shoot your legs out.
9/25/2006 12:35am, #119
Originally Posted by devil
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Prost's Mom
- Fucking Prost
--J.D.Why yes, I still have sand in my vagina! It is because I am a lying cowardly child who got buttfucked by MEANIE Doctor X! I also do not know the Latin and it makes me cry!!--Phrost
9/26/2006 3:52pm, #120
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
allright, I just got back from training in tokyo
ill post up some pics of the elbow orientation I am talking about since I just got a new camera (old one got stolen when my roomate moved).
After playing around with striking, I have determined that this elbow movement is different, but I'm not convinced it is optimal due to the amount of tension required in the shoulder.
Wackamole, you have some very interesting comments, which mirror my own perceptions. I have a feeling as more people get exposed to that type of training, people's perceptions about kata (and sanchin in particular) will change.
About 2 weeks ago, I attended a seminar with Arsenio Advincula, and he said more or less similiar things about training sanchin, saying that too many people were focusing on the external muscluar tension, instead of the tension felt due to alignment (i believe you are refering to this as pressure). Interestingly enough he was giving a seminar on body mechanics, through which he discussed some alingment, but mostly said that he was generating power through chinkuchi and the waist. If you watched him move, however, you could see that he was generating power though a more connected body (essentially chinkuchi). When I asked how to develop movement like his, he said to do sanchin daily with the feelings I described above.
Last edited by hl1978; 9/26/2006 4:08pm at .