Sanchin/punching/conditioning

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 1:30pm

[QUOTE=GoJu - Joe]

Originally Posted by devil

I am using Yoga as another example of something that fighters use to show that something doesn't have to have direct and obvious connection to fighting to a usefill.

There are many ways to train cardio, strength and felxablity seperatly and you should do them. However as a one man excercise to do them ALL at once, which is also an important aspect Kata has a use.

There are also many ways to train cardio, strength, and flexibility together. Why would you choose the one that also requires ass-loads of time worrying about things that are aesthetic only (ie: doing this or that with your fingers, turning your head just so, moving precisely the right way)?

**schuyler** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 1:32pm

Cool, I understand. Someday maybe I'll join you, but for now, I really like all the other aspects of my system so I'll keep doing the kata.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 1:41pm

[QUOTE=devil]

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

There are also many ways to train cardio, strength, and flexibility together. Why would you choose the one that also requires ass-loads of time worrying about things that are aesthetic only (ie: doing this or that with your fingers, turning your head just so, moving precisely the right way)?

Let's say you're shadow boxing infront of the mirror one day. instead of just flailing around you're going to do set combo's

Jab, cross, slip, body shot, jap, cross, bob weave, upper cut, upper cut, sprawl, leg check left leg in and out, thai kick, round house, sprawl.

You slow it down so you can see and make sure your keeping for form and technique correct, then you adjust your breathing to make sure your exhaling on the strikes.

Let's say you find this routine gives you the best work out and you keep repeating it.

How is that not a Kata?

Are some kata's more applicable than others? yes

Some are less applicable in technique but excercise your muscles even better.

Different Kata's for different things.

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 1:56pm

[QUOTE=GoJu - Joe]

Originally Posted by devil

Let's say you're shadow boxing infront of the mirror one day. instead of just flailing around you're going to do set combo's

Jab, cross, slip, body shot, jap, cross, bob weave, upper cut, upper cut, sprawl, leg check left leg in and out, thai kick, round house, sprawl.

You slow it down so you can see and make sure your keeping for form and technique correct, then you adjust your breathing to make sure your exhaling on the strikes.

Let's say you find this routine gives you the best work out and you keep repeating it.

How is that not a Kata?

Are some kata's more applicable than others? yes

Some are less applicable in technique but excercise your muscles even better.

Different Kata's for different things.

It's not a kata. A kata is not just a collection of combinations. For kata, it is required that you do each movement in a precise manner. If you choreographed your routine to the point that ten people could line up and do it all exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) the same, then it would be a kata. And it would be much less effective and efficient, because people would now be worrying more about doing it in the prescribed manner and less about what feels right.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 2:25pm

[QUOTE=devil]

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

If you choreographed your routine to the point that ten people could line up and do it all exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) the same, then it would be a kata.

That's what Kata is a routine that has been set down so it's the same for everyone who learns it

And it would be much less effective and efficient, because people would now be worrying more about doing it in the prescribed manner and less about what feels right.

That's called proper technique.

If the "jab" kata contains the proper movements so that you're worrying about getting the rotation and body weight behind it then it's a better training tool than flailing around doing what you think feels right.

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 2:36pm

[QUOTE=GoJu - Joe]

Originally Posted by devil

That's what Kata is a routine that has been set down so it's the same for everyone who learns it

That's called proper technique.

If the "jab" kata contains the proper movements so that you're worrying about getting the rotation and body weight behind it then it's a better training tool than flailing around doing what you think feels right.

Do you not see how it can become counterproductive once you begin to obsess about the precision of the routine itself, rather than the technique?

And who says you're going to be "flailing around" because the movements are not choreographed? You act like people lose all ability to do anything once you remove the rigid structure. That's hilarious. Like a student's brain is going to explode and he's going to lose all motor skills if you take away the kata. "Oh my God, how am I ever going to do a left hook, now? ****, I don't know. Better start flailing."

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 2:49pm

Your putting words into my mouth and arguing thing I or frankly no one else is saying. Never said you need to obsess about the precision of the routine nor that Kata is the only way to practice nor that without Kata peoples brains will explode.

Doing "what feels right" is an open ended statement that implies a lack of technique. It might "feel" right to strike with a limp wrist while holding your breath but it doesn't make it right.

There's a proper way to do a jab. A kata emphasies the proper elements of a jab technique, is one way to practice.

I nor anyone else has said it's the only way.

**Devil** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 3:04pm

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

Your putting words into my mouth and arguing thing I or frankly no one else is saying. Never said you need to obsess about the precision of the routine nor that Kata is the only way to practice nor that without Kata peoples brains will explode.

Doing "what feels right" is an open ended statement that implies a lack of technique. It might "feel" right to strike with a limp wrist while holding your breath but it doesn't make it right.

There's a proper way to do a jab. A kata emphasies the proper elements of a jab technique, is one way to practice.

I nor anyone else has said it's the only way.

Exaggerating? Yes. Being sarcastic? Most definitely. Putting words in your mouth? Maybe a little, but you did say "flailing". I definitely didn't accuse you of saying kata is the only way. I don't even think you're a kata extremist.

I don't think it's impossible to learn from kata. I just think it is never the most efficient way.

As far as feeling right, I was not envisioning a brand new student when I said that. Of course, a newbie doesn't have much of a feel for the way things should be.

On the other hand, you don't have to have kata to substitute for the lack of feel. Repitition of technique on a heavy bag or shadowboxing with proper supervision and correction is also effective. And I would argue more efficient, due to not having to worry about the "choreography".

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 4:59pm

Originally Posted by devil

Exaggerating? Yes. Being sarcastic? Most definitely. Putting words in your mouth? Maybe a little, but you did say "flailing". I definitely didn't accuse you of saying kata is the only way. I don't even think you're a kata extremist.

I don't think it's impossible to learn from kata. I just think it is never the most efficient way.

As far as feeling right, I was not envisioning a brand new student when I said that. Of course, a newbie doesn't have much of a feel for the way things should be.

On the other hand, you don't have to have kata to substitute for the lack of feel. Repitition of technique on a heavy bag or shadowboxing with proper supervision and correction is also effective. And I would argue more efficient, due to not having to worry about the "choreography".

Evaluation of Kata also depends on the Kata itself and how it's being taught. I have a feeling your Kata experience and mine are greatly different. If I had to invest hours and hours in Kata or forms I would quit what ever art it is.

Some Kata's like Sanchin (don't know if you had to do this one) are just great excercise.

Sanchin is the best dynamic tension excercise I have ever done. It has no applicable bunkai or technique, however for excercising your, legs, core/ stomach and arms at the same time it's excellent.

If I do it 2-3 times I feel like I have done a ton of crunches, squats and push ups and am sweaty and out of breath.

I know the response is why not just do crunches, sit ups and squats seperatly. But as an issue of efficiancy it's a good use of time to do Sanchin.

Again some times you just want to isolate one thing and do only crunches, which is fine but sometimes it's also good to have an excercise that does all three at once.

**sochin101** · Posted On: 9/22/2006 5:32pm

Also, sometimes kata is good to help you "zone in". I often used to run through katas before tournaments because of the physical warm-up, and the almost unconscious repetition of a familiar act, which I always found most calming prior to another kicking.

I'm sure there are alternatives... meditation, breathing exercises, visualisation etc., but kata, at least for me, provided both an aid to focus and a good warm-um simultaneously.