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  1. schuyler is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 12:38pm


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Devil:

    Waste of your time maybe. In kyokushin (IKO3 anyway) all the bunkai is taught the same. Like I said before, there is no 'secret' bunkai, and we don't spend hours trying to figure out the bunkai. The instructor shows the kata, then demonstrates all the bunkai. Thats it. No one really spends time in class actually doing the bunkai.

    Like everyone else on this thread has been saying, kata teaches hip rotation (IE POWER), balance and combinations. Nothign more, nothign less.

    BTW, what is freestyle? And what style did you practice before you discovered freestyle?
  2. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 12:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    Well I look at it this way. Diego Sanchez does a lot of Yoga and credits it with helping his fighting a lot.

    Doing Yoga however does not necessarily make you a fighter. Nor is Yoga benefits mainly about fighting or even have any real direct or practical connection to fighting. So it is a stretch to say yoga is important to fighting however the empiracal benefits of fighters who add yoga into their training can't be denied as more and more fighters (especially ones whose background is wrestling) add yoga into their training and credit it with helping them. In many respects they are reinventing the benefits that you can get from Kata (some kata's more than others.)

    FYI Gogen Yamaguchi who started the branch of GoJu I draw my Kata from was a yoga student and incorporated it into his Kata's which is why I bring Yoga up.

    Mmmm......you're stretching.
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 12:48pm

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    How is that stretching? Lifting weights, running and strecthing don't have anything directly to do with fighting but fighters still do them.

    If you limited all your training to things that can be seen directly to do with fighting all you would have is pad work and sparring. Not that that's terribly bad but the other stuff is important as well. Or succesful fighters wouldn't be doing them as part of their training.
  4. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 12:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by schuyler
    Devil:

    Waste of your time maybe. In kyokushin (IKO3 anyway) all the bunkai is taught the same. Like I said before, there is no 'secret' bunkai, and we don't spend hours trying to figure out the bunkai. The instructor shows the kata, then demonstrates all the bunkai. Thats it. No one really spends time in class actually doing the bunkai.

    Like everyone else on this thread has been saying, kata teaches hip rotation (IE POWER), balance and combinations. Nothign more, nothign less.

    BTW, what is freestyle? And what style did you practice before you discovered freestyle?

    Okay, so it's taught the same and means one thing in your organization. Still doesn't make the kata relevant. Why can't they just show you the technique? And why don't you spend time actually doing the bunkai in class? Why is it important to see the bunkai in the kata if the techniques are not worth practicing?

    As for kata teaching power, balance, and combinations - that's true. But you can learn those things more efficiently with other methods. And most importantly, with other methods, you won't waste time doing things that are unimportant (like obsessing over minute differences in hand positioning, stance, etc.)

    What is Freestyle? It's nothing at all. It's just a word I put on my profile. I put it there because I could give two shits about representing a style. I have no allegiance to any style and I think committing to a specific style is cancer for a martial artist.

    I have some black belts and some white belts, and none of them matter. None of them make my opinions more or less relevant. I'd rather be judged by what I have to say than what I say I am.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 12:56pm

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    [QUOTE=GoJu - Joe]Lifting weights, running and strecthing don't have anything directly to do with fighting


    Yes, they do.
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 1:01pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    [QUOTE=devil]
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    Lifting weights, running and strecthing don't have anything directly to do with fighting


    Yes, they do.
    No they don't "directly with fighting" implies that they're techniques for fighting as you would use them, i.e working combos on a pad is directly applicable to fighting. Running is not.

    Cardio, strength and felxability are elements that a fighter needs but on their own they don't have anything to do with fighting.
  7. schuyler is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 1:14pm


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Quote Originally Posted by devil
    Okay, so it's taught the same and means one thing in your organization. Still doesn't make the kata relevant. Why can't they just show you the technique? And why don't you spend time actually doing the bunkai in class? Why is it important to see the bunkai in the kata if the techniques are not worth practicing?

    As for kata teaching power, balance, and combinations - that's true. But you can learn those things more efficiently with other methods. And most importantly, with other methods, you won't waste time doing things that are unimportant (like obsessing over minute differences in hand positioning, stance, etc.)

    What is Freestyle? It's nothing at all. It's just a word I put on my profile. I put it there because I could give two shits about representing a style. I have no allegiance to any style and I think committing to a specific style is cancer for a martial artist.

    I have some black belts and some white belts, and none of them matter. None of them make my opinions more or less relevant. I'd rather be judged by what I have to say than what I say I am.
    The bunkai in our kata translate directly to the self-defense taught in kyokushin. The self-defense is practiced in class. Sorry, I should be more clear, we don't practice the bunkai while doing the kata. We do practice it individually as part of our self-defense curriculum. If you've seen a kyokushin kata you already know that there are no fancy or useless moves.

    I am not an expert, but I'd say that we practice kata still for the reasons I already listed above. Again, not a whole lot of time is spent on kata. Maybe someday kyokushin will get rid of it altogether.

    I thought maybe freestyle referred to wrestling or something. The reason I asked about your other styles was simply curiosity of where your hatred of kata comes from. You may find is useless, but I, and others, still see enough use to continue to practice it. Also, I don't think you'll find a more fighting oriented karate then kyokushin.
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 1:16pm

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    [QUOTE=GoJu - Joe]
    Quote Originally Posted by devil

    No they don't "directly with fighting" implies that they're techniques for fighting as you would use them, i.e working combos on a pad is directly applicable to fighting. Running is not.

    Cardio, strength and felxability are elements that a fighter needs but on their own they don't have anything to do with fighting.

    Cardio, strength, and flexibility can have a direct impact on a fight. If those things come from Yoga, then Yoga can have a direct impact on fighting ability. If they come from kata, then kata can have a direct impact on fighting ability. I've already said that kata can have benefits. My point is that other training methods are more efficient and more productive because extraneous stuff is eliminated.

    I say you're stretching because you're trying to use Yoga as a justification to practice kata. Things that are practical and effective don't require roundabout methods to justify.
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 1:21pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    [QUOTE=devil]
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe


    Cardio, strength, and flexibility can have a direct impact on a fight. If those things come from Yoga, then Yoga can have a direct impact on fighting ability. If they come from kata, then kata can have a direct impact on fighting ability. I've already said that kata can have benefits. My point is that other training methods are more efficient and more productive because extraneous stuff is eliminated.

    I say you're stretching because you're trying to use Yoga as a justification to practice kata. Things that are practical and effective don't require roundabout methods to justify.

    I am using Yoga as another example of something that fighters use to show that something doesn't have to have direct and obvious connection to fighting to a usefill.

    There are many ways to train cardio, strength and felxablity seperatly and you should do them. However as a one man excercise to do them ALL at once, which is also an important aspect Kata has a use.
  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2006 1:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by schuyler

    The reason I asked about your other styles was simply curiosity of where your hatred of kata comes from. You may find is useless, but I, and others, still see enough use to continue to practice it. Also, I don't think you'll find a more fighting oriented karate then kyokushin.

    My experience with kata is from karate. But to tell you the truth, I never hated it. I enjoyed it, actually. In fact, I've taken the time to do lots of kata study and practice on my own that wasn't required for ranking. I like to say "I piss on all kata practitioners" and that sort of thing because it's funny. But, I honestly do not have any intention of practicing kata anymore, because my interest is now solely in fighting ability, and I just cannot make the correlation between kata training and fighting ability.
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