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  1. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 10:47am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    High Percentage Submissions

    Hi,

    Theres a backstory to why I'm asking this but basically I suck at submissions but seem to have ok positional skills by comparison, this is especially true when it comes to no gi work.

    I'm curious what you think are high percentage submissions from mount, guard and side control (Your choice of form), I'm going to ask my instructor when I train next but thats a couple of weeks away now and I don't want to forget before then.

    I also want to know if anyone else has gone though this? Currently everyone at the club I train with is better than me but I still get mount and side control on them (Not as often as they get it on me but with some regularity still, could be because I'm bigger than most of the guys?) But once I get there I tend to just see hands glued tight in and no opportunity to free up an arm for a sub.

    Oh, another posibility I considered is that I didn't do the normal thing of going upagainst other newbs when I started grappling so I didn't ever get to go through a stage where I got to use the basic subs in sparring succesfully, I just don't have very much experience at all of tapping people out.

    Anyway, thoughts and opinions welcome.
  2. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 11:18am


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm pretty sure it's gonna be different for everyone based on various things, but I'll give it a shot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay
    Theres a backstory to why I'm asking this but basically I suck at submissions but seem to have ok positional skills by comparison, this is especially true when it comes to no gi work.
    I am quite similar... Most of my submissions are pretty shitty, but I can often get pins really easily. When I say shitty, I'm comparing myself to a lot of judo competitive black belts and people with BJJ grades. They aren't that bad, but even so, I'd like them better. Doing judo, pins can win matches, but subs are still obviously important.

    I'm curious what you think are high percentage submissions from mount, guard and side control (Your choice of form), I'm going to ask my instructor when I train next but thats a couple of weeks away now and I don't want to forget before then.
    When I've pulled guard, sangaku-jime (triangle choke) is something which works fairly well for me. I'm not a good attacking player from this position, and never could get juji-gatame (cross armbar) to work from underneath. From side control, I like kata-hajime, which can cause submissions. Due to my pretty good strength, I sometimes use ude-garame from this position, too. Those are just some ideas of things you can try - I'll let the experienced submission guys come and rip me apart later, but hopefully it's given you some ideas.

    I also want to know if anyone else has gone though this? Currently everyone at the club I train with is better than me but I still get mount and side control on them (Not as often as they get it on me but with some regularity still, could be because I'm bigger than most of the guys?) But once I get there I tend to just see hands glued tight in and no opportunity to free up an arm for a sub.
    I have gone through this too! My judo club has people of very high standard (two 3rd DANS, someone who trained in Japan for 2 years) - everyone is a brown or black belt bar 2. This isn't the problem, but most of them are HUGE and strong. I think it's something you've just got to practice, practice and practice some more. How long have you been training for? If you're getting into good positions, the submission skills will come to you eventually.

    Oh, another posibility I considered is that I didn't do the normal thing of going upagainst other newbs when I started grappling so I didn't ever get to go through a stage where I got to use the basic subs in sparring succesfully, I just don't have very much experience at all of tapping people out.
    How long have you been training for? Can't you find others at the club who are your level? I also train with guys who are often much buigger than me, and it helps my throws immensely. However, when I've got someone who'se arm I can't move, I often wonder wether I'm actually gaining anything.

    Anyway, thoughts and opinions welcome.
    Hope I've helped in some way :p
  3. Wynergy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 11:42am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The two submissions that I've seen used to best effectiveness are the leg triangle (my training buddy uses this almost exclusively), and the rear naked where both your hands are on the bicep, as tight as possible. The first is a guaranteed murderer, so much so, that I friggin saw it on Friday Night Smackdown last night while I was flipping channels. Horrible horrible form there though, I don't think it was even applied properly.

    The RNC, that particular variation, was taught to me while we were doing back control by a friendly purple belt. Testing the difference between the "hand on back of head" and that one, I don't know, it felt maybe 2, 3 times more brutal, with very little chance of resistance. Try to find one or two that you're adept at, and feel comfortable doing, I'm a small and flexible person, so we probably find different submissions to be best.
  4. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 11:54am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JCH: Been trainning grappling once a week for a bit over a year now. I also do a bit of Judo ground work as part of the Traditional Ju Jitsu, there I find that I can easily demolish the other people though up to about Brown but we are ment to only be playing for pins at my level, armbars allowed after your third grading, chokes after your fourth so my next grading meansd I can at leats play for the armbars and stuff :eusa_doh:

    The browns all seem to be damn near invincible but then again there is a gap of 2 years minimum between the brown belts and the purples and they all have backgrounds in Judo anyway.
    Last edited by ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE; 9/02/2006 12:22pm at .
  5. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:14pm


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay
    JCH: Been trainning grappling once a week for a bit over a year now. I also do a bit of Judo ground work as part of the Traditional Ju Jitsu, there I find that I can easily demolish the other people though up to about Brown but we are ment to only be playing for pins at that level :eusa_doh:
    Only playing for pins up to brown belt level? That seems a bit stiff, but each to their own I suppose. Pins are definitely useful though, for gaining control and positioning, though. I still think that with a bit of practice, the pins will come. If you can't get their arm where you want it, try going for something else, to FORCE them to move their arms and defend. From there, grab one.

    Good luck with it, anyway :)
  6. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:23pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JCH: Oops, should have said that we are only allowed to play for pins at my level, after the next gradin we start to work in submissions.

    Edited my original post to make it clearer.
  7. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:42pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From mount:
    -Juji-gatame. If you can't get juji from mount you need to stop rolling with better players and drill this. This is basic. Master it.

    -Ezekiel, or collar choke. Same as above. Stop rolling with better players and master this.

    From side control (yoko shiho gatame):
    -Americana (ude garame) and kimura (reverse ude garame).

    -You should also be able to transition to juji gatame from here.

    -Kesa gatame shime (scarf choke). I sound like a broken record, bu this is judo 101 **** right here. If you cannot do these things you need to STOP ROLLING WITH THE BLACK BELTS!

    From guard:
    -Sankaku jime (triangle choke). This is trickier than it looks, but works a lot.

    -Juji gatame. IF you can't do this from guard, guess what? STOP ROLLING WITH BLACK BELTS!

    I am not rying to get your goat here, but basic grappling comes first. Drill these with someone of comparable skill level until you can do them all easily. THEN go smoke a black belt. It's fun...they get all pissy when you sneak something on them. Good times.

    But these are the basics IMNSHO. Know 'em, love'em.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  8. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:55pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Scrapper: I can do all those moves with no problem in drills, I can even pull them off on the few ocassions when someone with less experience than me comes to trainning (These aren't complete grappling noobs, there was a Judo green or blue I think that trainned that I had no problemn whatsoever subbing if that gives any sort of indication of my level?).

    The problem comes when I try to use the moves and theres a lot of resistance there, I don't seem to be able to isolate a limb to make a go of the sub on, when I get a dominant position then whoever I'm rolling with tucks in the limbs, maybe what I need to do is drill the move but include isolating the limb from the defensive positions and put a bit more resistance into it?

    Oh, also it's no Gi work primarily so I find that makes things even more difficult.
  9. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 1:00pm


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I realise that this (probably) wasn't directed at me, but I'll reply anyway.

    -Juji gatame. IF you can't do this from guard, guess what? STOP ROLLING WITH BLACK BELTS!
    This isn't a HUGE priority, as guard fighting in judo very rarely occurs. As you know, groundfighting rules in judo are a bit skewy and if anything hasn't happened in a few seconds, both of you are stood up. As soon as one player pulls guard, the fight is usually stood up. I drill most of my submissions from turtle or yoko-shiho-gatame, because that's where I'm going to end up most as a result of a throw. If I get a mount I'm going to use it as a pin.
  10. Scrapper is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 1:02pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is the essence of grappling right there. Start stringing sub attempts together to open up the limbs you need.

    Start a forearm choke from mount to get him to push you away and expose an arm for juji gatame.

    When he resists an ude garame, straighten the arm out for a straight elbow lock.

    Nobody just hands you a limb for a sub. You have to set them up. the internet is not a good medium to convey this. Ask your instructor to show you some strings.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
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