Muscle Memory

**Jez** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 6:18am

So as some of you may know, i injured my shoulder quite a few weeks ago (there was a different thread i started) and ive been back into cardio and leg/abwork for about 2 weeks now. Well, this morning at the gym, i had just finished my run and was doing some skipping.
It was a freakin hot australian day, so i took my shirt off to cool down a bit.
As i caught my reflection in the mirror, i thought "holy crap!", as i looked at the wiry heap of skin and bones skipping in front of me (well.. not quite THAT bad).

I still have a while until i get into surgery, waiting for the results of an MRI, and after that ive got all that friggin rehab and stuff.. and ill be in alot of pain etc. etc..

what i want to know is, how long/hard will it be for me to regain the muscle i have lost, once i start boxing/weight training again? (at this point in time its barely noticeable, but its going to get worse)

and can anyone give me a general idea of what muscle memory is?

cheers:5paperbag

**Tef-the-Persian** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 8:16am

People like jwinch, TBM, Akira, Medio, etc. can give you a better idea of it than I can.

But, muscle memory occurs when you train a certain physical movement. With repetition, the movement becomes crisper and more accurate to whatever it is you're trying to do. They're divided into two types, fine and gross, basically divided into how much of the body is being used.

What I'd be interested to know is what happens when we don't have a visual cue for your brain to go, "Okay, movement sucked, again!" Do blind people have to work harder to develop muscle memory? And the like.

**baofuhaibo** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 10:16am

Blind people develope muscle memory easier, as they don't have to add hand-eye coordination to muscle movement, rather, muscle movement is the only thing they know. Ever seen a blind Tricker or XMArtist? It's a beautiful thing.

If won't take but 4-6 weeks for you to return past full strength, but I would reccommend completely switching your workout to a different one, with different sets, reps, tempo, exercises, rest between sets, everything. Try a variation movement of everything your doing now with one less set performed Tabata or circuit-style. I dunno. Change it all up once your fully healed, and the results will come flooding back.

**Equipoise** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 2:55pm

Akira=Equipoise fyi.

Anyway, for starters, reading posts by Baofuasdyascbask will lower your IQ signifigantly. I'd avoid it as much as possible.

Muscle memory is synapse development that allows the CNS to perform activities more efficiently given certain stimuli. It's the body's adaption to certain repetitive movements/exercises etc.

As for regaining the muscle that you've lost, that's going to depend on your diet, lifting regimin, rest, etc. There's going to be a lot of factors that will influence it, you should have an easier time though than a first time trainee assuming you were serious about lifting in the first place.

One thing I can say is that it's going to be difficult to get the needed calories and stave off your body's adaptation to aerobic exercise (endurance based) in an attempt to gain mass while doing anaerobic exercise (short term high intensity based) as I'm sure you're doing long rounds of aerobic exercise for boxing. This is why you generally don't see massively ripped boxers unless they're just genetically huge.

Anything else?

**Jez** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 6:04pm

Originally Posted by baofuhaibo

Blind people develope muscle memory easier, as they don't have to add hand-eye coordination to muscle movement, rather, muscle movement is the only thing they know. Ever seen a blind Tricker or XMArtist? It's a beautiful thing.

If won't take but 4-6 weeks for you to return past full strength, but I would reccommend completely switching your workout to a different one, with different sets, reps, tempo, exercises, rest between sets, everything. Try a variation movement of everything your doing now with one less set performed Tabata or circuit-style. I dunno. Change it all up once your fully healed, and the results will come flooding back.

by variation do you mean like switching from mill press to arnold press, from bb benchpress to db benchpress ??

**Jez** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 6:14pm

Originally Posted by Equipoise

Akira=Equipoise fyi.

Anyway, for starters, reading posts by Baofuasdyascbask will lower your IQ signifigantly. I'd avoid it as much as possible.

Muscle memory is synapse development that allows the CNS to perform activities more efficiently given certain stimuli. It's the body's adaption to certain repetitive movements/exercises etc.

As for regaining the muscle that you've lost, that's going to depend on your diet, lifting regimin, rest, etc. There's going to be a lot of factors that will influence it, you should have an easier time though than a first time trainee assuming you were serious about lifting in the first place.

One thing I can say is that it's going to be difficult to get the needed calories and stave off your body's adaptation to aerobic exercise (endurance based) in an attempt to gain mass while doing anaerobic exercise (short term high intensity based) as I'm sure you're doing long rounds of aerobic exercise for boxing. This is why you generally don't see massively ripped boxers unless they're just genetically huge.

Anything else?

haha.. i didnt read your post until after i had replied to the other guy..

I was fair ripped/big before, and still am, just to a lesser extent. (proborably not by bodybuilders standards, but i easily had the body of a 20 year old when i was at 'peak form')
And i ate a hell of a lot of calories.

and yeah, since your skull is the vessel of knowledge on which i feed my brain the yellow goo within...

my health teacher told me protein needs carbs to work efficiently, some big guy at my gym told me protein on its own is all you need, and my mum (trying to shed a few kilos for summer) said that protein on its own wont be used by the body, therefore no weight gain.

whats the go there??

**bob** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 6:35pm

Originally Posted by Jez

So as some of you may know, i injured my shoulder quite a few weeks ago (there was a different thread i started) and ive been back into cardio and leg/abwork for about 2 weeks now. Well, this morning at the gym, i had just finished my run and was doing some skipping.
It was a freakin hot australian day, so i took my shirt off to cool down a bit.
As i caught my reflection in the mirror, i thought "holy crap!", as i looked at the wiry heap of skin and bones skipping in front of me (well.. not quite THAT bad).

I still have a while until i get into surgery, waiting for the results of an MRI, and after that ive got all that friggin rehab and stuff.. and ill be in alot of pain etc. etc..

what i want to know is, how long/hard will it be for me to regain the muscle i have lost, once i start boxing/weight training again? (at this point in time its barely noticeable, but its going to get worse)

and can anyone give me a general idea of what muscle memory is?

cheers:5paperbag

Jez, as equipoise said, muscle memory is more a function of the way your central nervous system interacts with the muscles. The name is a bit of a red herring, it's more "neuromuscular" memory.

Muscle memory will enable you to do movements more efficiently, so your previous high level of training will help your rehab in that respect. However, there is actually some loss of this function when you have major trauma to a joint (in the form of an injury or surgery). You'll lose some of your basic ability to determine what your shoulder is doing and how to do it most efficiently. This is in addition to the loss of muscle strength and endurance etc.

A good example is trying to elevate your arm above your shoulder. This is actually a pretty complex movement, involving the co-ordination of a lot of different muscles. People who've had shoulder surgery will usually try to do a basic 'cheating' movement by hitching the shoulder blade straight up.

I'd have to say it will take you quite a few months (anywhere from 6 upwards) to get back into top shape - assuming you have a reco. You've got to remember that this isn't just normal muscle wasting with disuse. Trauma and surgery add a whole different dimension to it.

On the plus side, you're 16 from memory so your body will have a high degree of adaptability and trainability and, as I said, your previous high level of fitness counts for you.

You have my sympathies, I just had my own MRI on Friday and I'm looking at knee surgery in October so I'll be in the same boat.

**Jez** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 7:24pm

Originally Posted by bornsceptic

Jez, as equipoise said, muscle memory is more a function of the way your central nervous system interacts with the muscles. The name is a bit of a red herring, it's more "neuromuscular" memory.

Muscle memory will enable you to do movements more efficiently, so your previous high level of training will help your rehab in that respect. However, there is actually some loss of this function when you have major trauma to a joint (in the form of an injury or surgery). You'll lose some of your basic ability to determine what your shoulder is doing and how to do it most efficiently. This is in addition to the loss of muscle strength and endurance etc.

A good example is trying to elevate your arm above your shoulder. This is actually a pretty complex movement, involving the co-ordination of a lot of different muscles. People who've had shoulder surgery will usually try to do a basic 'cheating' movement by hitching the shoulder blade straight up.

I'd have to say it will take you quite a few months (anywhere from 6 upwards) to get back into top shape - assuming you have a reco. You've got to remember that this isn't just normal muscle wasting with disuse. Trauma and surgery add a whole different dimension to it.

On the plus side, you're 16 from memory so your body will have a high degree of adaptability and trainability and, as I said, your previous high level of fitness counts for you.

You have my sympathies, I just had my own MRI on Friday and I'm looking at knee surgery in October so I'll be in the same boat.

sounds like a bundle of fun..

my ex- sub grappling coach just had a reco a few weeks back by the same bloke im going to.. it went really well.

but he said he instinctively reached out to get a cup a few days ago from his kitchen sink, and dropped it because his shoulder couldnt support the weight.

His wife accidentally knocked his arm getting off the couch, caused him to vomit from the immense pain!

And this is a tough bloke, who has had 4 knee reconstructions, a 2 time (from memory) olympic gold medalist in judo, and a good 'no rules' fighter, among other things.

So what you were saying is the term 'muscle memory' actually has not alot to do with the actual muscle and more to do with mental memory?

i think i understand.. i will have to re-read the posts a few times i think.

thanks for the info.

**Equipoise** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 8:21pm

It's not mental in the sense that you have control over it. It has to do with your central nervous system and it's ability to perform tasks. The more you do something, the better your body becomes at performing it due to synapse development. IE this is why people develop more muscle. It's to handle the increased load that they're putting on their bodies.

The guy at the gym is an idiot. He eats carbohydrates in the form of brown rice more than likely. Protein alone will cause you to go through ketosis, lethargy, and a host of other wonderful problems. You need carbohydrates to provide energy for your body. Proteins do work for energy, but they're horribly inefficient compared to Carbohydrates. Think calories versus protein or carbohydrates. Your body will adapt if you're getting less than enough protein, etc. A good rule of thumb is 1.0-1.8 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight.

Make a food log with fat/calories/proteins and carbohydrates listed. Increase your caloric intake by 500 cals each day and see if you gain weight. If not, then you need more and as always try to keep the fat low. 45g per 1500ish calories is a good rule of thumb for fat intake. Don't skimp on the fat either, you need it to metabolize your foods and to lubricate your joints, organs, etc.

**baofuhaibo** · Posted On: 9/02/2006 9:41pm

He's not trying to gain weight. He wants to gain all his strength back. That's why I told him to change everything up and do circuits. He'll back back to his old strength and his target weight in no time.

Yes, Jez, you last reply to me is what I meant. There's a reason why I don't have a flashing neon sign above my name(Hannibal) or a quote about inherent sexism displaying my stupidity for the world to see(Equipose). Take my advice for just 6 weeks after your fully healed. You won't regret it.