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  1. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2006 3:19am

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Atemi waza is kept in Kata more for the intention of preserving the traditions of the original Jujutsu from which it was developed (or so I have been told).

    The atemi in Judo is really not worth studying if you ever wish to be a competent striker. If your goal is the full understanding of Judo, then you should definitely study the waza including the way that things are set up in order to provoke the throws.

    On the question of leg locks------- as far as I know, they were supposed to be taught. They were not supposed to utilized in Shiai but they are in the syllabus. I believe the reason they are overlooked now is because all of Judo seems to be geared toward performance in Shiai.
  2. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2006 11:54am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Atemi waza is kept in Kata more for the intention of preserving the traditions of the original Jujutsu from which it was developed (or so I have been told).

    The atemi in Judo is really not worth studying if you ever wish to be a competent striker. If your goal is the full understanding of Judo, then you should definitely study the waza including the way that things are set up in order to provoke the throws.

    On the question of leg locks------- as far as I know, they were supposed to be taught. They were not supposed to utilized in Shiai but they are in the syllabus. I believe the reason they are overlooked now is because all of Judo seems to be geared toward performance in Shiai.
    So if the leg locks were normal in the curriculum (I've seen some videos of Mifune doing something of the like), why not keep the atemi waza in order to teach how to set up throws, I'm not saying to reinstate atemi waza in full to supplement your striking, but at least some to acomodate the total lack of.

    ignore me, I'm ranting
  3. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2006 5:14pm


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Hmmm, you are referring to "tento" ("heavenly knock out" with the middle of the crown of the head as the target). This is a nage no kata clip for the execution of seio nage. According to the idea, uke is supposed to attack for real, so even if the strike is zombieish, if you don't grab it, you'll get hit.
    If you can't grab it, you're not very co-ordinated. :p That's the one I'm referring to, though.

    Yeah, that's a pretty useless strike as done there, but from what I understand, there are other more realistic strikes in atemi.
    I'm sure there are. However, that one's the easy one to pick up on because IMO, it's so crap. I'll check out the atemi-waza in other katas.

    Also, one doesn't need to raise his arm in an arch (as in that clip) to perform a downward strike. It could be done a-la hammerfist from guard/hands up position.
    One of our guys trained in Japan for a few years (picked up his 1st and 2nd Dan grades there). He said they were ever so nitpicky and wanted the strike to be done in textbook style (ie: big circular motion). Whatever though, I'm not too sure.

    Cheers for the response anyhow.
  4. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2006 12:09pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JabCrossHook
    If you can't grab it, you're not very co-ordinated. :p That's the one I'm referring to, though.



    I'm sure there are. However, that one's the easy one to pick up on because IMO, it's so crap. I'll check out the atemi-waza in other katas.



    One of our guys trained in Japan for a few years (picked up his 1st and 2nd Dan grades there). He said they were ever so nitpicky and wanted the strike to be done in textbook style (ie: big circular motion). Whatever though, I'm not too sure.

    Cheers for the response anyhow.
    Okay, we have stablished that atemi on kata sucks for the most part, however, what's your take on bringing atemi waza on a more realistic manner to judo practices?
  5. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2006 12:49pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neko687
    Okay, we have stablished that atemi on kata sucks for the most part, however, what's your take on bringing atemi waza on a more realistic manner to judo practices?
    I know this question wasn't directed at me but according to a Lane who is a member here has said Andrew Budd a Judo instructor in Texas, teaches atemi waza. The catch is he is a Judo, Enshin, and TKD blackbelt.
  6. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/07/2006 12:09pm


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neko687
    Okay, we have stablished that atemi on kata sucks for the most part, however, what's your take on bringing atemi waza on a more realistic manner to judo practices?
    Hmm.. I'm not totally sure to be honest. I wouldn't mind seeing it introduced in practice (as opposed to competition), where unpredictable punches are thrown (possibly with gloves) and defenses are attempted. However, this would take time away from competition training (I'm not a purist :p).

    I also don't think there are that many defenses to practice. IMHO, countering strikes with ippon-seoi-nage and the like is very unlikely. Slipping inside, tangling the arm and then executing some kind of sweep/o-goshi type throw seems more practical.

    If atemi-waza was introduced into normal competition, it would become a crappy version of MMA.

    As you can probably tell, I'm not too keen, but I'm not against the idea of trying :)
  7. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2006 12:18pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Step 1) allow more sport bjj moves
    Step 2) If the soccer moms of the world dont flip out, then we can talk about striking.
  8. El Neko is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/07/2006 1:35pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    Step 1) allow more sport bjj moves
    Step 2) If the soccer moms of the world dont flip out, then we can talk about striking.
    1) Such as?
    2) yeah, we're gonna need a lot of good luck for that
  9. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2006 3:00pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Neck cranks, leg locks, cross facing (well more leadway on casual contact of the face), chokes that might be neck cranks, ankle locks, wrist locks, shoulder locks, Basically all the stuff I can do at NAGA that I can't do in judo competition. Then you extend the ground time a little longer and teach the refs to really understand what is going on on the ground. I'd love to be able to work my position for a few seconds. Also allow more techniques at lower belts? Why do white-green belt divisons not allow armbars?

    Until you can do everything you can do in a sub grappling tourament, what is the point of talking about striking?

    of course again, you gotta convince the soccer moms.

    Dont get me wrong, I love judo. I just hate competition rules.
  10. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2006 8:30am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    Neck cranks, leg locks, cross facing (well more leadway on casual contact of the face), chokes that might be neck cranks, ankle locks, wrist locks, shoulder locks, Basically all the stuff I can do at NAGA that I can't do in judo competition. Then you extend the ground time a little longer and teach the refs to really understand what is going on on the ground. I'd love to be able to work my position for a few seconds. Also allow more techniques at lower belts? Why do white-green belt divisons not allow armbars?

    Until you can do everything you can do in a sub grappling tourament, what is the point of talking about striking?

    of course again, you gotta convince the soccer moms.

    Dont get me wrong, I love judo. I just hate competition rules.
    I understand the disdain for certain rules on judo (I wish they gave us more time on the ground too), they also need to give a more clear cut idea of what's consider an Ippon (I have been drop on my shoulder and belly and the ref has called an Ippon.

    I do not care for leg logs on competition, if I want to do leg logs, neck cranks etc. Iíll go to naga or any other sub wrestling comp. available; But they should definitively be part of the curriculum cover at judo same as strikes, Iím not expecting to be competing on judo with strikes included any time soon.

    About the white-green division not allowing arm bars, Iím competing under USJA and the restriction about arm bars is more age related (I believe they start at 17). What ORG are u under?

    I believe USJI was talking about giving more math time during competitions but then again it falls under the criteria of the ref, if he believes that youíre not advancing on the ground he will stand you, and sometimes it is a bad call.

    Then again, convincing the soccer moms is gonna be interesting.
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