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  1. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 11:16pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo, Katas, and new Ideas

    Ok, I got a question for everybody in here

    Is my understanding that one of the reasons Kano (Jigoro) kept the Katas on judo (besides the historical value and desired to keep certain roots from older styles) as a way to practice certain thing from jujutsu that were too dangerous to practice full speed on others (so he could keep injure free judokas as opposed to injure plagued jujutsukas [is this last one even a word?]) examples: leg locks, small joints manipulation (Goshin Jutsu), atemi waza (kime no kata, goshin, nage, etc.)

    My question is, certain things I agree should stay on the katas, but with all the innovations brought to the table, shouldn’t we start adding some of this things back? (Grappling gloves, helmets shin pads for atemi waza for example)

    Please discuss.

    Thank you
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 11:19pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the ka suffix is only used on systems that end in "do" (way). (yes Karateka is there, but Karate can also be Karate-do) And yes I am making this up as I go along.

    I think he left the kata in so that he could market it to LARPers if he was ever tight on cash. Never close any doors ya know ;)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 11:21pm

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is leglocks, small joints manipulation , atemi waza, and goshinjutsu to dangerous to do full speed?

    This is coming from me who broken my forearm doing Goshinjutsu. However, I will say the way I broke it (having someone landing on it) could of just are easily happened in judo randori.
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 11:38pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pl4zM4
    Why is leglocks, small joints manipulation , atemi waza, and goshinjutsu to dangerous to do full speed?

    This is coming from me who broken my forearm doing Goshinjutsu. However, I will say the way I broke it (having someone landing on it) could of just are easily happened in judo randori.
    I nearly shat myself when I watched two kids sparring, and when they went to the ground, one grabbed the others hand and applied a middle finger joint lock for the tap. Spent the next 5 minutes lecturing about how breaking fingers in the dojo is a big no no, right up their with gouging the eyes and eating the liver.

    The rest of the stuff listed I see being able to do full speed.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 9:06am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like I said, it was this person believe that this was the case, I really don't care for leg logs, but if applied correctly I can see how it doesn't have that much of a problem, is obviously a set of joints that take a little more to get full recovery in case of an accident (comparing to elbows).
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 10:23am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There seems to be a risk associated with ACL injuries that Kano tried to minimize by keeping leglocks in kata. Also, notice that in BJJ, leglocks are not allowed for practitioners under a certain age (or belts in competitions.)

    My gut feeling is that at the time, certain things were being perceived as too dangerous by the general public. Let's remember that Kano wanted Judo to be widely accepted as an sport. So he may have err on the side of caution :(

    We need MONGO and DakotaJudo here...

    I for one would love to see, at the least, reviews on how to use striking to set up throws. That is, in a formal way as part of the common judo curriculum... I dunno.

    ps... Neko, btw, sorry for getting a bit off the tangent, but this may be of interest to you since you are in Boca. At the Kai-Itsu-Sai dojo in Coconut Creek, (at least, last time I check), there is a class specific for kata directed by Miguel, one of the instructors. I think he was getting a few black belts to participate in the class, and he suggested me to join (as a safer training alternative). That was over two months ago...
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. JabCrossHook is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:10pm


     Style: Kickboxing, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neko687
    Is my understanding that one of the reasons Kano (Jigoro) kept the Katas on judo (besides the historical value and desired to keep certain roots from older styles) as a way to practice certain thing from jujutsu that were too dangerous to practice full speed on others (so he could keep injure free judokas as opposed to injure plagued jujutsukas [is this last one even a word?]) examples: leg locks, small joints manipulation (Goshin Jutsu), atemi waza (kime no kata, goshin, nage, etc.)
    Would you even call the "thing" in nage-no-kata atemi-waza? It's basically a useless strike that would never be used in any situation. If kano wanted people to use these techniques, then wouldn't he have allowed them in randori? If they can't be practiced at full speed on a resisting opponent then IMO it shouldn't be practiced at all.
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 2:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JabCrossHook
    Would you even call the "thing" in nage-no-kata atemi-waza? It's basically a useless strike that would never be used in any situation. If kano wanted people to use these techniques, then wouldn't he have allowed them in randori? If they can't be practiced at full speed on a resisting opponent then IMO it shouldn't be practiced at all.
    Hmmm, you are referring to "tento" ("heavenly knock out" with the middle of the crown of the head as the target). This is a nage no kata clip for the execution of seio nage. According to the idea, uke is supposed to attack for real, so even if the strike is zombieish, if you don't grab it, you'll get hit.

    Yeah, that's a pretty useless strike as done there, but from what I understand, there are other more realistic strikes in atemi.

    Also, one doesn't need to raise his arm in an arch (as in that clip) to perform a downward strike. It could be done a-la hammerfist from guard/hands up position.

    The whole idea of judo atemi was/is supposed to be for setting up attacks, not to engage in a standup fight. That's fine with me, but I would really like to see it being done more in practice. The reason why some things are seen only in kata escapes me.

    BTW, I had bookmarked a judoinfo.com page on Kimura's life, and I think this is a good place to show/quote the following:

    I won All Japan Championship in the fall of 1937. My dream came true. I pinched my cheek several times. It really hurt. It was not a dream. After dinner, I did 500 push-ups, bunny hop 1km, and Makiwara strikes of karate 500 times
    Did judoka at that time actively trained in striking??????????
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 5:00pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, I was having a problem with my IP address thru the day.

    JabCrossHook you're right, it may seem a little useless to mention that strike from nage, however, is there and you got my point, right?

    que tal macho?, thank you for the info, we have a couple of teachers at my dojo (5) who are actively competing on katas so if I ever decide to do more than nage (I hate Kata) I'll have enough people to help me there, thank you for the tip though, is always good to have options.

    I believe Kimura was special, but taking in count that many of the high ranking kodokan guys came from another schools of jujutsu it may have a influence on how they train. (also I believe Kimura, at the very least, had some knowledge of Karate taking in count his friendship with Mas Oyama).
  10. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2006 3:10am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't listen to what I say, but maybe the kata was kept becuase he believed that it was a useful part of training? While Kano was revolutionary in his approach to training he still lived in an era where kata was taken for granted. Perhaps he couldn't make a complete break with the idea?

    Regarding early judo competitions: (from http://www.judoinfo.com/rules2.htm)

    "At first, Kodokan Judo was seen as a form of jujutsu and matches were held in the older jujutsu style. An early participant in these matches, Sakujiro Yokoyama, is quoted as saying, "In those days contests were extremely rough and frequently cost the participants their lives. Thus, whenever I sallied forth to take part in any of those affairs, I invariably bade farewell to my parents, since I had no assurance that I should ever return alive."

    Could this hint that strikes were permitted in these early comps? This might make them similar to early UFC/NHB matches.

    "In Furyu: The Budo Journal, Wayne Muramoto writes, "The duels were probably closer to the original intent of the word shiai, which now means 'match' or tournament, but once referred to shi-ni-ai; to symbolically meet death itself. There were no yuko or koka (half or quarter points). You scored with a full ippon point; throws, chokes, holds or arm locks that would, in an actual situation, completely overwhelm your opponent. And the time limit was up to the judge. You usually went until someone dropped from sheer exhaustion or the judge ended it, awarding the match to the clear victor. Truly, it was shi-ni-ai."
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