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View Poll Results: Who does the lack of a mat favor for takedown TRAINING?

Voters
71. You may not vote on this poll
  • It greatly favors the attacker.

    7 9.86%
  • It slightly favors the attacker.

    11 15.49%
  • It might affect the tactics, but neither is at an advantage.

    19 26.76%
  • It slightly favors the defender.

    1 1.41%
  • It greatly favors the defender.

    0 0%
  • It only favors the Ibuprofen manufacturers.

    33 46.48%
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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2006 11:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seriously though any throwing art should be trained on some sort of mats.
  2. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 6:17am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If we're going to debate the subject of wether or not grappling and takedowns should be trainned without a mat I'm going to have to throw my vote in for "Once in a while" If you have an interest in Self Defence stuff. Don't think it'll do much harm and it's fairly educational.
  3. Schwarde is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 7:23am


     Style: Injured

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Throws should be trained on mats. But, once in a while it does a body good to practice falling without them. The mat tells your body what it wants to hear... the wooden floor of the dojo will let you know if you're falling properly real quick
  4. Kayne is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 8:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah. A good, hard drop-knee throw onto a non-padded surface? Frankly I'd rather be the attacker; the sack-er rather than the sack-ee.
    I'm not drowning my sorrows, I'm preserving them in alcohol.
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 10:42am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    You normally don't get long term injuries from direct impact alone, but from bad weight distribution and stress on the joints.

    You know, I've thought about this for a while, but I still can't make sense of what you meant by "bad weight distribution". Could you elaborate? Perhaps you meant "muscular imbalance"?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

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  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 12:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd say it greatly favors the attacker, in particular if the attacked does not know how to defend from a takedown or throw... or even better (for the attacker), if he does not know how to breakfall.

    Takedowns and throws must be trained in mats. No questions about it IMO. Doing otherwise is just an unnecessary risk that yields very little benefit.

    You really don't want to slam your knee on the mat when shooting for a takedown, but if it happens, it happens. Same if it to be done without mats, like in the d334dly street, with the glass and lava :tongue3: But again, if it happens it happens. The knee is a very hard thing, and you have to impact it very strongly to incur in damage, which you could even on a mat. That's just one example.

    Anyways, I voted #1. It ain't the same to be at the receiving end of a takedown or throw without a mat as opposed to have one that (somewhat) cushions your falling ass.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. Zing! is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 12:49pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For training, it only benefits the ibuprofen manufacturers, because the idea of training isn't to injure your opponent by judo-tossing him onto concrete. It's to learn; and you can't learn if you're too bruised to train.

    But to play along, it greatly favors the attacker because, if the attacker goes to the ground too, he is generally able to plan his trip to the ground and partially land on the other guy.

    If you're practicing takedowns without mats, you deserve whatever injuries you receive.
  8. bodhistate is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2006 2:42pm


     Style: pa-kua

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Training without mats requires a great deal of control and correct form to avoid injury. You might not break your knee hitting it into concrete, but you sure can **** it up, same for wrists, elbows, and ankles. Impact damage depends on speed, force, the material you are hitting, how many times, etc, but it only takes one bad landing on a hard surface to maim and cripple you.

    I've seen people throw themselves (getting a good three feet of clearance) in side and front falls onto concrete, as well as rolls from height (jumping over someone 5-6 feet tall and rolling out of it), and anyone whose scene Parkour knows it is possible, but they practiced falling and rolling a whole shitload first.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 1:31am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really don't understand your poll, and the Middle one about tactics was a non-answer, the last one was an easy way out, and so that left Pro or Con. I really can't see someone having "tactics" in training. Tactics are used in combat.

    TRAINING is obviously the trick question. But you refer to who does it "favor". Is training a contest? I hope partner training improves both peoples skills in every drill. o wait you may mean "sparring", but that is really more like Fighting then training. So your question only works if you mean sparring or fighting for real.

    I think it must be cross Training contests between a mat trained grappler and hard floor trained striker, all things being equal (and each never training on the others surface), the Hardfloors have an advantage. and being training, the Grappler is further disadvantaged because he shouldn't be slamming his partner on the hard floor.

    Same would go against a floor trained striker on a mat. I guess you could even flip it and have a grappler trained only on hardfloors and a striker only trained on matts? but thats stupid, or two strikers on a hard floor? obvious

    What if its two grapplers TRAINING on a hardfloor? Who has the advantage there?

    What if they both traing the same program at the same gym? is there an advatage at all? Its the same training?

    Now if it was a Fight, on hard floor, it would just be about tactics, and neither would have an advantage because of the surface.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
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  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2006 12:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On second thought, some training on a non-padded surface would be useful. But that sort of training should be limited to breakfalls and shoots (wearing knee pads of course). Throwing or taking your partner down on a hard surface is too much of a risk for your partner and the dividents you get are minimal.

    What you have to be concerned in a hard surface is how to breakfall at worse. It would go without saying that sacrifice throws are not the first choice if and when you need to take somebody down.

    The greatest concern when throwing somebody on hard surfaces is that you may go down with him, and in that case, you want to make sure your elbows and knees don't "stick out", but that's something pple already do in a mat.

    In summary, breakfalls on hard surfaces may be a good idea. Anything else is not since the risks are too high and the rewards too minimal.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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