No Mat: Who does it affect?

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 11:57am

In a TRAINING situation for takedowns and defenses, who does the LACK of a mat favor?

On another thread, someone speculated that, due to psychological and societal norms, an attacker would "naturally be at a disadvantage" because he really wouldn't want to take the defender down. That didn't sit well with me. My reasoning if two people decided to train without a mat, while it might affect the tactics used by both, generally, it just causes more wear and tear on the training partners.

I thought this would be an interesting poll.

**ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 12:10pm

Going to have to go with saying it will only affect tactics at a guess (I've never tried it) but thats assuming we are talking about takedowns in the sense of single legs and stuff where you aren't going in for, what I'm going to call throws for want of a better word.

I know that grappling on harder mats makes both the attacker and the defender a bit more cautious, shooting in and missing can be a bit unpleasnat but equally, getting taken down is a bit worse as well.

If you start to work in more Judo style throws (AS opposed to "BJJ takedowns" I know, I'm wincing as I type it), particularly hip throws, I guess it favours the attacker more as the pain from getting thrown hard wiill be fairly substantial.

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 1:14pm

I personally think it is stupid to train throws and takedowns without a mat. Save some wear and tear on your body. Sometimes protection is not a bad thing (always wear cups, condoms, and mouthguards.)

I know that if I trained as hard as we do in bjj/judo without a mat, I'd probably be a cripple. In fact a few times I've been knocked silly on the mat from throws I didn't expect.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 2:20pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

I personally think it is stupid to train throws and takedowns without a mat. Save some wear and tear on your body. Sometimes protection is not a bad thing (always wear cups, condoms, and mouthguards.)

I know that if I trained as hard as we do in bjj/judo without a mat, I'd probably be a cripple. In fact a few times I've been knocked silly on the mat from throws I didn't expect.

I agree with you. It is crazy. However, to a certain extent, training this kind of stuff on a mat is already crazy, so it's really a matter of degree as to how crazy two training partners agree to be. :smile:

I've seen skateboarders with little to zero amount of protective gear try some pretty insane stunts, take some pretty nasty spills, and just get up and get right back on their skateboard to try again. Maybe they wouldn't try the half-pipe without a helmet (you never know), but a falling on hard surface didn't seem to slow them down or change what they were doing all that much.

Hip tosses can be certainly nasty, but the attacker can be counter-thrown so I think it's still a wash. As long as they're not going for a full force smash down with a makikomi or something, good ukemi and an attacker who helps you fall softer would seem to still make this somewhat reasonable to the crazier people.

I certainly have no love for Systema, but their practitioners do seem to advocate practicing grappling without a mat at least once in a while. Of course, that may be an indication of stupidity more than relative safety. :smile:

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 2:27pm

Once in a while in Enshin we would spar without the mats and I didn't really do alot of takedowns then because well they hurt. and if I found myself being taken down I would find myself holding on to the thrower while drilling as opposed to doing a proper breakfall.

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 4:12pm

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

I've seen skateboarders with little to zero amount of protective gear try some pretty insane stunts, take some pretty nasty spills, and just get up and get right back on their skateboard to try again. Maybe they wouldn't try the half-pipe without a helmet (you never know), but a falling on hard surface didn't seem to slow them down or change what they were doing all that much.

The joys of youth. Of course give them a few years and see how well those knee/hip replacement surgerys go.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 8/29/2006 4:47pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

The joys of youth. Of course give them a few years and see how well those knee/hip replacement surgerys go.

Of course luck has something to do with it. But, it hasn't seemed to have affected Greg Garcia (picture @ right).

And, Tony Hawk is what - like 39 years old?

Also, there are more than a few older grapplers who never did anything off a mat who still have bum hips, knees, and shoulders due to their art - dems da' sacrifices. (I'd have to agree with speculation that the percentage would be a wee bit higher among the mat-less crowd, though.)

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 8/30/2006 6:26am

You normally don't get long term injuries from direct impact alone, but from bad weight distribution and stress on the joints.

**DJR** · Posted On: 8/31/2006 11:35pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
I've seen skateboarders with little to zero amount of protective gear try some pretty insane stunts, take some pretty nasty spills, and just get up and get right back on their skateboard to try again.

The joys of youth. Of course give them a few years and see how well those knee/hip replacement surgerys go.

Yeah, I know a few people who are paying for their youthful skateboarding hijinks now that they're getting into their 30s and 40s. I think it was mosty attitude and youth that allowed them to get away with it at the time, but now that they're older all those years of falling on concrete = joint pain, back problems, and physio (for those that can afford it).

I kind of suspect that falling on hard surfaces repeatedly should be avoided...

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 8/31/2006 11:49pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

I personally think it is stupid to train throws and takedowns without a mat. Save some wear and tear on your body. Sometimes protection is not a bad thing (always wear cups, condoms, and mouthguards.)

I haven't worn a condom yet in training although maybe I have misunderstood the phrase "get your hooks in"