Ba Gua Bullshido (one for the vault)
:angry7: The clown in dark blue in this vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhOQq-n32yk, Glen Wright
used to be my Ba Gua Chiang instructor. Notice the clownish Mickey Mouse gloves. I trained there for about a year and the whole time I knew deep down what he was teaching me was bogus but I was determined to give it a chance anyway (like an idiot)
I can't believe I found this online but a moments analysis tells me that in this match he doesn't actually use any of the stupid **** he taight us!!! His stance and body positioning go right out the window as soon as the contact starts. His strikes are silly light ass open handed slaps... this is what seems to me to be to be a pathetic display and the kind of thing most TMAists are doomed to forever.
He's a nice person really but when I look back on those days and the stupid bull **** he taught me it makes me mad as hell at myself for being such a fucking sucker!
For instance: He ordered me to stop lifting weights because he said it would inhibit the chi flow through my shoulder!!!! I never felt whatever he means by chi becasue it doesn't phucking exist. But at the time I didn't know that. I knew it went against common sense, but whatever. So anyway instead of becoming a better fighter I just got out of shape.
In this particular type of Ba Gua http://www.pa-kua.com/ there is NO PUNCHES!!!!! I **** you not... No punches whatsoever. In fact the only weapon they have except for typical **** CMA kicking is this lousy psuedo chi palm strike. I worked and worked on that damn palm crud.. I did that thing 200 times a day for the entire duration of time I studied there and yet according to the seeefooo I NEVER DID IT RIGHT ONCE :tongue6: :angry5: :eusa_wall He kept telling me I had no power. I think he's the one with no power (excpet the power of imagination). We asked him to demonstrate his chi strike on us. He refused saying (of course) that it was "t00 d34dly" and he didn't want to hurt us (lol)
To make matters worse in the first few months he found out I had a heavy bag and asked me to stop using it because it could damage my hands. I have scars all over my knuckles from fighting and hitting my bag without gloves. he said that his training method would keep me from getting injuries to my hands and that a Ba Gua practitioner shoudl never hit anything but a person with their strikes. But anyone who has done full contact will tell you open had will get your fingers BROKEN! duh At least that's what I think anyway...
After seven months of waiting he finally allowed us to spar. That was the beginning of the end. The speed was slow and the contact was light - precisely the opposite of what one needs to learn how to fight IMO. He seemed to resent the fact that I regarded the sparring as useless and during sparring sessions he would tell me that I needed to attenuate myself to the "nature of internal boxing" and not try to hurt my opponent. This seemed insane to me. I wasn't in there just knocking people out... I just wanted to hit a live target with SOME power..
The sifu constantly complained that my palm strikes had no power. He criticised everything I did even though I was in better physical condition by far than anyone esle in the class (teacher included) and trained harder than anyone else in class which was frustrating. In hindsight it seems like he was a lot happier with students that had never studied anything else, never questioned him and followed everything he said down to the letter. He claimed that I was "addicted to brutality". That their school taught "fighting, not thuggery" and often hinted that he thought I was better suited to a "hard style"
The last straw came when I overheard him tell the senior student... a man that had been studying internal arts for almost 20 years that his palm strikes had no power... I never went back.
I am glad for the comedy on this web site when we roast some art or phoney stylist because hwen I think about how I was taken in and bamboozled by fuckers like this in the past it boils my brain with evil rage
Last edited by Mars; 8/25/2006 3:12pm at .
Hmm. Are you saying that you think that Ba Gua in itself is useless, or only when taught shittily by a shitty teacher?
I think he's saying this guy fuking suks.... and anybody that condones this **** can burn in hell!!! (at a glance anyway)
Heading off to training, so no time for an extended response, but...
Glenn Wright is under Park, Bok-nam's lineage. It is, allegedly, a solid family tree. However, a friend of mine has attended at least one seminar with Mr. Park, and came away complaining that Park did more evangelizing about Christ than training, and taught only the most basic drills... He isn't a hard core "punch me again" kind of person (my friend, that is), so when HE complains that something was a bit wishy-washy, it speaks volumes...
Never met Mr. Wright. I will say that, after doing Yiliquan for nearly 20 years (which includes Baixingquan, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang), I've never ONCE been taught to circle around someone when applying "bagua" type techniques... Sometimes you are on the outside of the circle (striking the opponent from an unprotected flank), sometimes you're at the middle (slinging the opponent around you for a throw or summink), sometimes it goes through you or through the opponent (for the angle of the strike or throw). But it isn't used to walk around the other guy... That's just goofy looking.
Bagua can be a very effective set of tools in the right hands. The lack of punches is a style thing, but the footwork and body mechanics will tend to compensate quite a bit with someone who is good at it. There are lots of great throws, and someone who has the palm changes just so can hit like a train. Bottom line though, few people can use the style because there are a lot of finnicky little parts that have to be put together and pressure tested repeatedly in order for it to work at all. For the average person, this style is just a waste of time. For someone serious about improving their footwork and body mechanics, this style is pure gold.
Whoever is in the video fighting needs to be bitchslapped with a tree. His root is crap, his alignment is worse, and he hasn't the foggiest idea how he's actually supposed to be applying his art. The "wire ball" metaphor for bagua is there for a reason. A decent bagua guy shouldn't be punching: he wants to enter, lock, throw, elbow, and wrap, as simultaneously as possible.
I learned first palm change primarily for health -- I have arthritis so bad I can't even button my shirts unless I do something like this occasionally, but xingyifa is right: most folks do it for health like I have (which is why it's not on my style list). I know *one* guy who can fight with it.... (Bernie Langan, who teaches out in the Bay Area), but he would go through me like the Mongols through Persia.
So far one vote for lineage, one vote for 'CAN BE' effective.
Now let me cast my vote. CRAP.
This vid was pretty sad. The funny part is the comments. When the fighting obviously sucks, theres always that person that claims "this isn't real ____" .
I'd love to see Aikido v Bagua.
The way that guy was just dangling the hand out there - "Grab my wrist"...
You were taught by this guy? I feel sorry for you too.
Anyone who knows anything about Bagua knows that fighting has NOTHING to do with its postures, circle walking practice, or ZZ practice.
Bagua has nothing to do with "applications" or the way it looks. Its forms and methods are designed for simply conditioning the body a specific way, (as well as the mind) and to learn how to stay completely balanced while your limbs are moving in completely different directions, while moving at high speeds. You could punch if you wanted...using IMA body mechanics and such, its just in the TRAINING there is no punches hence "Bagua zhang." I use a heavy punching bag to hit all the time, I use bagua strikes (which use every surface of hand), as well as xingyi, taiji, boxing, MT, etc. It is a little hard to fajing with full power without hurting your wrist, so there is NOTHING wrong with conditioning your hands/wrist to withstand some force. I can do a so called "internal strike" but the thought "chi" never once flows through my head, I am just using my whole body, as explosively and relaxed as possible to deliver the force, in one wave, to its destination. If done right I suppose it could knock someone down (not far away...), but the likelyhood if applying this in a full unscruipted spontaenous fight is unlikely.
Bagua is mostly for people who have practiced MA for long periods of time and are ready to add a different way of application to their fighting style. I don't believe Bagua by itself could hold its own in a competitive environment. Most don't have neither the intellectual capacity or patience to learn it. Its "different" and definitely odd, but once you get into the "flow" of things in Roushou, or sparring, it becomes very useful. Especially for getting out of holds, locks, throws, redirecting, changing directions, moving fast, etc.
That video is a disgrace not just to bagua, but Martial Arts in general, who the hell fights walking flamboyantly in a circle like that? A very basic bagua app would be more like guy punches, you duck and move to his outside-back while sweeping his front let and pulling upper body towards you. (a throw) It has nothing to do with circling around an opponent and throwing pansy strikes out there. In fact I wouldn't even let guy know I practice anything (giving you element of surprise).
Bagua vs akido would be interesting, but one thing serious bagua players do is strike, and throw with every part of their body. Akido is similar (some thing it came from bagua), but at the higher levels I don't think it compares to BGZ IMO. Mostly because "high level secret black belt" techniques and training methods in Akido are taught to BGZ begginners. It has only been recently, thanks to CMA, that you see Akido adding these methods into a regular regimen.
Last edited by BaguaMonk; 8/27/2006 5:20am at .