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  1. Binary is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 4:46pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Penn and Teller - Gun Control

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...06794163083426

    For those who haven't seen it. The episode of Penn and Teller's show Bullshit, on Gun Control.

    And how... it is.... well... you know,

    Bullshit.

    I know for those here in the Armory it is just confirmation of ideals for the most part. It is however a very entertaining episode and they raise a lot of very good points that I feel don't get represented in the media very often.

    Anyway. Have fun. Be young. Drink coke.
  2. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 9:05pm

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    I wish I could watch Penn and Teller’s Bullshit but I do not have Showtime. Pretty good video but it could have been more tightly reasoned. Some times I felt that they got a little sloppy. For example why have a re-enactor put words in the mouths of the Founding Fathers, why not let them speak for themselves.

    A few examples…

    Richard Henry Lee (anti-federalist) wrote, “…to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms…”

    Thomas Paine (author of The Crisis and Common Sense) wrote, “Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them [arms]…the weak will become prey to the strong.”

    Thomas Jefferson wrote, “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

    Patrick Henry wrote, “The great object is, that every man be armed…Everyone who is able may have a gun.”

    John Adams wrote, “Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion…in private self defense.”

    Samuel Adams wrote, “[The] Constitution be never construed to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.”

    Also see James Madison in Federalist 46 in which he explains the advantages to an armed population and then why European nations have gun control because they do not trust their citizens with weapons.

    My main point is that if you view the Second Amendment within the context of the time and keep in mind what the Founding Fathers had to say about an armed citizenry it is difficult to conclude that the Second Amendment does not ensure the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms. Every other freedom guaranteed by the Bill of Right is a product of the historical events that led up to the Revolution or of American experiences during the war. Also the British marched from Boston to Lexington and Concord to seize a rebel armory, so an attempted British gun raid sparked the first battle of the Revolution.

    Factual Error: Penn states that the Americans fought the British for two years. In fact the war lasted from 1776 to 1783.
  3. Binary is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 9:14pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Olorin
    Factual Error: Penn states that the Americans fought the British for two years. In fact the war lasted from 1776 to 1783.
    This is indeed a factual error, he may however been refering to the point that Americans identified themselves as Americans.
    That's a bullshit excuse, and I'm not Penn's mother or anything, but it is well known that a lot of the minute men in the Revolutionary war considered themselves subjects of the British crown for quite a while even after the war had started.


    Also, in addition to your line of quotes (I think it's in the video too... Haven't seen it in a while)
    "What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is its natural manure."

    -Thomas Jefferson
  4. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 9:21pm

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    In addition every other instance in the Bill or Right of the use of the term “the people” or simply “people” was always been interpreted as meaning the citizens of the United States. For examples see the 1st Amendment “…or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble…” The 4th Amendment “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects…” And finally the 10th Amendment “…or to the people.”

    If one were to argue that “the people” actually means something else entirely we would lose many of our most important liberties. However this is not what gun control advocates do. They state that the use of the words “the people” in the 2nd Amendment is somehow different then the way it is used throughout the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Also for the position of gun control advocates in regard to the 2nd Amendment to be correct one must accept the premise that the experience of the Revolution did not shape the liberties contained in the Bill of Rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary
    This is indeed a factual error, he may however been referring to the point that Americans identified themselves as Americans.

    That's a bullshit excuse, and I'm not Penn's mother or anything, but it is well known that a lot of the minute men in the Revolutionary war considered themselves subjects of the British crown for quite a while even after the war had started.
    Ya when I see an error like that it makes me question the other facts they present in the video. I mean for god’s sake did no one on staff raise their hand and say “Mr. Penn…I think the war lasted longer than two years!”

    As far as when Americans began to self identify as such, people write whole books on that topic.
    Last edited by Olorin; 8/21/2006 9:28pm at .
  5. Binary is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 9:28pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Olorin
    If one were to argue that “the people” actually means something else entirely we would lose many of our most important liberties. However this is not what gun control advocates do. They state that the use of the words “the people” in the 2nd Amendment is somehow different then the way it is used throughout the constitution and the Bill of Rights. Also for the position of gun control advocates in regard to the 2nd Amendment to be correct one must accept the premise that the experience of the Revolution did not shape the liberties contained in the Bill of Rights.
    To believe in gun control
    IMO is also on some level or another to believe that government will always be perfect.
    Much like that quote from Jefferson, to completely defang the populous
    (well... worse than it already is)
    Ensures total power of the military and by proxy, the government.
    It is to hold the ideal that the government shall always be perfect and will never need to be kept in check.

    Which is, in a few word, foolish.
  6. Won Dom Fok is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 9:58pm


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    I definately believe in gun control. I think the bullet should go where you aim it.:new_gmorn
  7. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 10:05pm

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    Meh. As a rule, we don't discuss the political side of it in here.
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  8. Binary is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 10:45pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Meh. As a rule, we don't discuss the political side of it in here.
    I thought we just weren't allowed to OPPOSE it in here?

    As is described in the forum description.
  9. Sun Wukong is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 1:47am


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    Actually, after watching the Penn & Teller episode about recycling I'm not so convinced that they aren't just a different kind of bullshit artist. I'll explain.

    It's not that they exactly told lies, but they did omit the truth and make many sweeping and misleading statements. For instance, they mentioned aluminum cans only in passing as the one kind of recycling that they could find that was actually good for the environment and then they went on and on about how recycling paper waste and plastic bottles was a huge waste of time.

    In my opinion, they are right but not in the sweeping terms that they used. By and large recycling paper goods and plastics is a waste of time and money. However, that makes up for a very, very small percentage of the recycling industry. It especially takes up a small percentage of the recyclable industry that is actually profitable; recycling aluminum can's is small part of the industry when you look at high grade steel, tungten, nickel, other aluminum, brass, bronze, and copper scrap.

    Copper scrap, btw is valued at about a whopping $3.00 a pound. Anybody know how much a copper radiator weighs? Scrape up enough of them (like enough to fill a standard international cargo container... about 20 tons worth) and you can finance a house or by a smoking fast car.
    A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
  10. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 2:32am

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    Bullshit does raise very interesting points, but you should take it with a grain of salt and think about the issues for yourself and do some of your own research. I also think Penn and Teller would tell you the same thing.
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