Posted On:8/22/2006 5:34pm
Lots and lots of guns.
Let me make a short story long. This weekend I went to visit my grandparents. They are not doing well. My grandfather told me I was getting his guns, as he cannot trust my father with them. My dad has a tendency to give things away. To his 2nd wifes family. And that don't set well with gramps.
So while moving some of his stuff out of the old house I found another cache of guns. These up in the attic behind the waterheater. Lucky I found them else the new owner would be getting them.
Here is where I want some help. I was raised around guns. I have shot lots of guns. I own a gun. But I am not worldly about guns, thier value, their reliability, nor thier accuracy. Any input about these would be helpfull:
1) A Remington 1100 shotgun. Beautifull condition. Gramps said it has never been fired. Was not loaded.
2) A winchester 30-30. Lever action like something out of a cowboy movie. Beautifull condition. Another weapon gramps said was never fired.
3) Pocket pistol of some caliber. .38 perhaps? A Walther(sp?) I believe. Looked like a 5 shot. Probably from the 1960's. Kept in car. Some external wear on the bluing. No nicks or scratches. Was found loaded.
4) Blunderbluss. I swear to god this is what my dad called it. A .45 caliber revolver. Do not know the manufacturer. Found in a cabinet fully loaded. Lots of wear. Looks like something out of the 1930's. It's huge. And worn. The cartriges looked so big and the gun so old I thought it would explode in my hand.
5) .22 caliber rifle. Remington I THINK. Pump action. Loaded from a tube going down under the barrel I THINK. Good condition but has a scratch on the stock. Looks like it was from the 60's. It has been fired many times.
6) A chrome S&W .357 with 5" Barrel. Loaded. Appears to have been fired.
7) the wildcard. Another .22 rifle. This one my grandfather said was FULL AUTO. And illegal. Not magazine fed. Loaded from the stock. The strange thing is that it was very small. Like a bb gun. Not more than 3 feet in length. And it had, on the underside, a little switch that allowed the gun to be broken into 2 peices with just a flip of a lever. Like the barrel just came off. I asked him a couple of times if he was sure it was full auto. He smiled and said yes. He mentioned something about 1911? I dunno. Might have been talking about a pistol. Gramps is real old. I think this gun has been fired. But I did not get the model or make of the gun.
And this is only what I saw. I think there are others he has tucked away someplace. Overall I was pretty impressed. But honestly I have no idea about any of these guns. None. Anybody have any thoughts or opinions?
Posted On:8/22/2006 9:11pm
Was the pocket pistol a revolver or an automatic? If it is an auto it is probably a 32 apc. If it is a revolver it could be a 38 or 32 cal. A picture would really help.
As far as the “Blunderbuss” from your description it is a 45 long colt revolver of some sort. Is there a date or manufacture stamp anywhere on the pistol? Is it a single action? And if so, how many screws does it have just above the trigger on the right side of the gun.
As far a full auto 22 that loads from the stock, you got me there. I have never heard of such a thing.
Also if he mentioned a 1911 that is a pistol, standard government model sidearm, if he has one you should try to find it!
If you can post some good quality pictures of the guns I am sure we can identify them.
I hope Don Gwinn will be along shortly, he knows more than I do.
Last edited by Olorin; 8/22/2006 9:38pm at .
Posted On:8/22/2006 9:27pm
The Remington 1100 is a pretty popular autoloading shotgun. If unfired and with original box it could fetch a decent chunk of change, say about 400 or so based on where you live. If you like skeet or duck shooting keep it yourself.
Winchester (1895 model?) 30-30 is another classic and if in pristine condition will fetch some cash if you desire to sell. almost a solid grand or so.
Id have to see a pic of the pistol but if its a walther and its that old it maybe a PP and probably in .380. probably wont sell for very much especially if it has wear.
Posted On:8/22/2006 9:59pm
Originally Posted by Roaming East
Id have to see a pic of the pistol but if its a Walther and its that old it maybe a PP and probably in .380.
If I had to guess…
If it is a Walther and a PP is it probably a 32 APC. But we will not know until we see some pics. What confused me is that he said it “might” hold five rounds. A PP in 32 hold eight and a 380 holds seven. It is rare to find a PPK in the US that is chambered in anything but 380 but if the gun is old enough it might be a 32 apc. If it is a Walther it should be clearly marked.
That being said after WWII Walther contracted with a French company to manufacture its pistols. Some of the guns were marked Walther and some were marked Walther on the slide and Manurhin on the grips. See link
Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!
Posted On:8/22/2006 10:09pm
Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu
Son of a... good catch man! No comment on the guns as the Don will have more input no doubt. Items 1, 2 and 6 are nice...
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Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
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BJJ wins again!
Posted On:8/22/2006 10:44pm
The .22 sounds like one of the Brownings. They were fed through an opening on the right hand side of the stock with a large oval relieved opening around it. The receiver is very slim and the forend bulges out gracefully from there. Very small and handy guns. They have a large, obvious button or switch at the bottom of the receiver.
As far as I know, they were not made in a full-auto version. Unless it has some sort of malfunction (which would render it unsafe and needs to be repaired) it's probably a semi. Was your grandpa explicit about the full auto and illegality? If it just lets go several shots or a full magazine when the trigger is pulled, not necessarily stopping when you release the trigger, then it's not true full auto but a "runaway" condition probably caused by a worn sear or the like.
The .22 is your big issue at the moment. I highly doubt that it is full auto. If you found that it was, and was not NFA registered, your best bet would be to destroy it. It's just not worth it. BATFEKS is perfectly capable of arresting your for possessing your inheritance and sending you to federal prison. Two years or so ago there was a highly publicized case (at least among gun nuts) where a kid inherited his grandpa's old .22 rat gun. In the old days it was common to cut off a cheap bolt-action .22 rifle to hunt rats with. It was probably about $25 worth of gun, if that--but it was under the minimum length and thus a "Short-Barreled Rifle," which means he needed an NFA tax stamp for it. The kid had no idea. He took the thing and tried to turn it in to the police, BATFE got wind of it, and he ended up charged with a federal felony for possessing the rifle even in the process of turning it in.
Again, more likely the rifle isn't really full auto at all. At worst, it's probably malfunctioning. But it's a good idea to find out and take appropriate action.
I'm not an expert on these little guns, but they're great shooters and well worth having.
The 1100 is a great design and a great gun.
The Winchester could be one of several models, 1895 (1894?) sounds likely to me, but I'm not an expert. I believe the 1873 (the one you see in all the cowboy movies) was made in .30-.30 later on. These are classics that were literally made for decades. Remember guns are not computers; a well-made gun from 1900 is more than likely an excellent weapon as long as it hasn't been allowed to rust out.
Here's a link with pretty good basic info on the various Winchester lever actions. They include pictures with closeups of the actions, the easiest way to identify each model. Barrels and stocks, magazine tubes and levers were all custom propositions on the older Winchesters, so they might be standard or they might be really wild stuff. The action won't lie.
What kind of ammunition does your .45 revolver take?
*If it takes long, rimmed cartridges, it's probably .45 Long Colt. (Look to see whether the rim at the base of the cartridge protrudes out beyond the case.) This was originally a black powder .45 round dating back to the old stuff like Colt Single Action Armies (the stereotypical cowboy gun) and the S&W Schofield (a great big top-break revolver. But it's been chambered in something new for the last hundred years, so there are Smith and Wesson double actions and such chambered for it.
*If it uses short, fat .45 cartridges with that same type of rim, it may be .45 Auto Rim. Basically, that's .45 acp with a rim for use in revolvers.
*If it uses a clip to hold the ammunition (a circle or half circle of steel with cutouts for the cartridges, called a "full moon" or "half moon clip" respectively) then it's probably .45 acp, same thing as a 1911. Most of the guns out there of the vintage you're talking about are Smith and Wesson 1917's. You probably don't have one since the S&W marks would have been obvious, but if that's what it is, it's a great find. It would look more or less like your average N-frame Smith and Wesson double action revolver.
*In addition to all these, the British have approximately 37.5 different calibers like .455 Webley in all kinds of military revolvers they used for many years. A lot of Americans would call these .45's, but again, they should be marked.
From your description, it sounds like something in .45 Long Colt to me. Those are BIG honkin' cartridges for a handgun, but you have to remember that they're loaded at lower pressures than, say, the .44 Magnum. The case is huge because it started life as a black powder cartridge. With modern firearms, people load them to pressures the first examples wouldn't handle, and the Colt Single Action Army had a reputation for surviving HUGE .45 LC loads, but only a dedicated few have kept that alive since the advent of the .44 Magnum.
Some guessing pictures. Tell me if these look familiar. . . . this should be your .22. It's a Browning and it's a hell of a gun. The second pic shows the same model (even though the stock and finish are very different) broken down into its two pieces.) My dad has several of these because at one point he was practically collecting them. They're just sweet as can be no matter how funny they look.
Bottom line? You've got nothing there I'd sell, but I'm a gun nut. You might decide to thin the herd. Your first order of business is to confirm that the .22 is NOT a full auto. If it has sear issues, get a competent gunsmith to fix them for you. If it's some kind of mutant full auto someone built, your safest bet is to torch cut the receiver. Sorry. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to NFA items. Don't try to apply logic; it can get you arrested.
Posted On:8/23/2006 9:21am
check for serial numbers, as i recall either remington or winchester lets you look up info on the firearm via their website if you have the serial number.
Posted On:8/23/2006 10:27am
Thanks for the info. That picture you posted looked amazingly similar to what I saw. I must have been completely mistaken about the full auto. We are honest law abiding citizens and my grandfather is definately not a criminal. He has had a couple of strokes. So his mind must be gone. No way would he own a fully automatic anything. But I don't think it is the browning. It isn't fed through the side of the stock. There is a little screw thing at the base. Right at the back of the stock that feeds the ammo.
The blunderbuss I recall something about my dad saying British. Honestly I wanted nothing to do with it. It was too big. I did see the cartriges but couldn't tell you if they were short or long. They were huge though. Huge.
I know he has more guns. It will be interesting to see what else turns up. Personally I don't care much for handguns. There is a reason I don't own any. Because they are too easy to take with you. And I think I would get myself into trouble. The rifles and shotgun on the other hand look like gems. I have gone skeet shooting and really enjoy that. It's been years since I have fired a rifle. But I am definately looking forward to cache granddad is leaving.
MAYBE I can get him to take some digital pictures and email them.
Posted On:8/23/2006 10:30am
Unfortunately Don is right, after you have a gunsmith evaluate the 22 to figure out if it is actually a full auto. (I doubt it) destroy it if he says yes. The other technique is to have your family lawyer use his connections with law enforcement to do the turn in himself (after the weapon is wiped for prints) and then refuse to provide any more information on the grounds of attorney client privilege. However many attorneys wouldn't be willing to do this, though I would as long as I knew the weapon was not involved in a crime.
Posted On:8/23/2006 4:51pm
Ooohhh . . . . maybe it's some kind of cool Webley or something. I love those old Imperial British revolvers. It didn't by any chance have weird zigzag grooves cut into the outside of the cylinder, did it?
I wonder what the .22 is. I've seen .22 rifles that feed the way you describe, but I'm not expert enough to recall what they were. Hmm.
As far as law-abiding goes, believe me, you'd be shocked if you could go around the nicest little neighborhoods in your town and look through all the attics and basements. There are a lot of otherwise law-abiding citizens holding on to old machine guns (particularly the stuff grandpa brought back from WWI and WWII) and old sawn-off shotguns and rifles. Heck, I'd probably be shocked. It's been interesting to look around and really listen to people and realize there are illegal machine guns all over. They're not being used to hurt anyone, but neither are their owners willing to give them up just because "the government" decided nobody can be trusted with them anymore.
I don't really see the percentage in keeping an unregistered sawn-off shotgun or .22 around, myself. It's nothing you couldn't make in ten minutes with a hacksaw and a cheap shotgun if you really needed one, and there's not much reason to really need one. Getting caught with it, on the other hand, is a federal felony.
But there are people out there right now who consider themselves very law-abiding folks who have one in the attic rafters that they haven't touched for thirty years. They've just decided that's going to be where they draw the line, I guess.
You have to be awfully careful. It's often difficult to know how to follow gun laws even if you would like to do so. Take "constructive possession," for instance. The difference between a semi-auto AR-15 and a full-auto AR15 is some machine work and a trigger group consisting of several parts that have to be different for full-auto. I don't know how many, but let's say five parts (plus the machining on the receiver.)
Well, many years ago, if you didn't want to register a machine gun, you could just take the full-auto group out and leave it disassembled (or put in a semi-auto group with some guns.)
Then BATFE decided that having the gun and the parts to make it full-auto constitutes "constructive possession." You have the parts, so you have the weapon.
Then BATFE decided that if you have, say, one full-auto M16 and one semi-auto AR15, you can't have all the fire-control parts for the M16 because they could be used to convert the AR15.
Then BATFE decided that if you have an AR-15, you can't have even ONE of the fire-control parts for full auto, even as spares for your legally-owned M16, because possession of one out of five full-auto parts makes your gun, in the eyes of the law, a machine gun.
Nowadays they basically treat the part as the machine gun--if you have an "auto sear" for an AR-15, you have it registered like a machine gun.
This got so bad at one point that they were arresting people for possessing pipe and fender washers, claiming that they intended to manufacture suppressors. They were saying that fender washers were baffles, which made them "suppressor parts." Constructive possession.
Last summer I saw a 10-guage shotgun single-shot barrel all of eight inches long at a yard sale. I should have bought it and crushed it, but I didn't. It was legal--probably--for that seller to own and even to sell, but if it ended up in the possession of someone who also had that model of shotgun, constructive possession means he'd legally be in possession of a Short-Barreled Shotgun (unregistered.) It'll probably never happen, but you can't be sure. My dad couldn't tell you all the shotguns he owns on a dare.
I'm just ranting about the Gubmint now, so I'm going to sign off and go to Zhu Zhitsu.
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