the title "shihan" and the menkyo ranking system

**Afrin** · Posted On: 8/20/2006 2:22am

Originally Posted by MONGO

They have menkyo (license) but it is usually formed around the established dan system. There should not be the other traditional systems of menkyo ----Okuden, Menkyo Kaiden and the such.
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I'm not sure if I completely understood that. Are you saying the two systems are not totally independent? I think it would be obvious that a person would progress in both simultaneously.

**MONGO** · Posted On: 8/20/2006 9:56am

They are not independent although most systems that I know of are. The traditional ranks of Menkyo are exclusive to Japanese martial arts and must have a well maintained lineage to be valid. Most of the lineage and information about the certified parties is maintained by the organization.

The use of those titles without a certified Japanese based lineage is almost guaranteed fake.

I reread the first question and Shihan is not a traditional rank as far as menkyo is concerned (to the best of my knowledge). It is usually a title that is given to senior members of a lineage that are considered the examples.

**Afrin** · Posted On: 8/20/2006 12:25pm

Originally Posted by MONGO

I reread the first question and Shihan is not a traditional rank as far as menkyo is concerned (to the best of my knowledge). It is usually a title that is given to senior members of a lineage that are considered the examples.

thank you so much!

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 8/25/2006 1:48am

Originally Posted by MONGO

They have menkyo (license) but it is usually formed around the established dan system. There should not be the other traditional systems of menkyo ----Okuden, Menkyo Kaiden and the such.

That's right as the former system wasn't used in Okinawa. In fact, Okinawa didn't use any particular system in the premodern period at all, which is why there's a great deal of confusion around karate history. I know some Okinawans were skilled in Japanese koryu (like the Jigen-ryu) though.

**Lefty** · Posted On: 8/25/2006 6:23pm

"In the days before Kano created Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system in the martial arts. A more traditional method of recognizing achievement was the presentation of certificates or scrolls, often with the secrets of the school inscribed. Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yudansha (black belt ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained black belt ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886."

http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm

**Doctor X** · Posted On: 8/25/2006 10:06pm

Originally Posted by eyebeams

That's right as the former system wasn't used in Okinawa. In fact, Okinawa didn't use any particular system in the premodern period at all, which is why there's a great deal of confusion around karate history. I know some Okinawans were skilled in Japanese koryu (like the Jigen-ryu) though.

To my knowledge, Okinawans are happy to keep that separate in that they would not extend a traditional license and teaching into what is a modern style.

My style did not have dan ranks until about 1958. I would have to check to see if they had any teaching licenses since a number of Glorious Grand Pooh-Bah's students opened their own schools. These would not be menkyo kaiden.

--J.D.

**Lefty** · Posted On: 8/26/2006 2:58am

"The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts, such as aikido and karate, which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes."

http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 8/28/2006 4:15pm

Oi, here's something. One of the arts I dabble in is Hakkoryu Jujitsu, which is very strict on lineage and liscensing and publisity (A Yoshitsune Manual by DePasqualle was taken away when the Honbu saw the word Hakkoryu in the Intro or something like that) and a lot of Higher muckymucks have slipped and been kicked out and the like.

They're not Koryu, but they were formed by Soke Okiyama after his studies in Daitoryu (and Kyodo for some Zen stuff I guess) and other various martial arts while he studied Shiatsu in Tokyo and later Hokkaido.

This grading system uses the kyu ranking system plus dans up to yondan, then comes other ranks without a numerical equal (they just don't use them) such as

Shihan, then
Kaiden Shihan, and finally
Sandaikichu Shihan (third pillar something or other, forgive any mispellings) and while I have seen Shihan and Kaiden I've not seen the third, not is there anything like Hanshi or Riodo-whatever in our system. After all the menkyo talk I am now deeply confused about the ranking system of this art.