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  1. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 12:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    However, I have a few of Cestari's tapes, and I don't think his stuff is "ok". I actually think it is great. To be completely honest, I actually thought it was mind-blowing when I first saw it.
    GREAT? MIND BLOWING? If only you were a Martial Noob and never been in a fight maybe. His material rates an OK but definitely not GREAT.

    One thing about street fights in my limited experience is that it's not a duel, as in you get invited to a one-to-one fight and then circle off to fight like in a cage fight. Most times it's a spontaneous thing where one party gets mad and starts pushing or throws a punch, and that's where the dirty tricks part of Cestari's material proves to be so valuable.
    Its not that simple. From considerable experience both in and viewing fights they come in all shapes and sizes. However rarely is there spontaneous violence. There is always build up to the violence. Often you will have posturing and peacocking until one feels he HAS to do something especially in social settings like clubs, bars, etc. For truly sudden violence, like muggings or a bumfush, you need quick reflectives and the awareness to see the danger coming, if you can.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  2. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Rochester, NY
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 12:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Its not that simple. From considerable experience both in and viewing fights they come in all shapes and sizes. However rarely is there spontaneous violence. There is always build up to the violence. Often you will have posturing and peacocking until one feels he HAS to do something especially in social settings like clubs, bars, etc. For truly sudden violence, like muggings or a bumfush, you need quick reflectives and the awareness to see the danger coming, if you can.
    Listen when this man speaks.
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  3. Devil is offline
    Devil's Avatar

    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 12:21pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, this is totally off the subject, but this thread made me think about it.

    I was reading a book about Medal of Honor winners a couple years ago. During one of the guy's accounts of a WWII battle, he mentioned an instance where one of his buddies was attacked by a Japanese soldier with what he described as a samurai sword. His buddy got slashed across his chest. Then he promptly threw the Japanese soldier down and stomped him to death. Is it just me, or is that hilarious?

    Okay, you can now return to your regularly scheduled program.
  4. bujutsuboy is offline

    Registered Member

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    Sep 2006
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    66

    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 3:44pm


     Style: Self Protection

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have the following Cestari tapes:-

    Fundamentals 1
    Fundamentals 2
    Grabs and Holds
    Groundfighting.

    They are nothing special. I used to wince when, on the old Close Combat forum, and later on the Battlefield forum, people would say "Wow Carl! You move so fast!! It's awesome!!!!!"

    He doesn't move that fast. Not at all.

    One of their main techniques is called the "Horizontal Axe Hand"

    Basically think of a Karate chop (Haaaayyyyyyyaa!) done by pointing your elbow at the bad guy and then throwing your hand out at him, a little bit like a back hand in tennis. These guys think this is just about unbeatable!

    Any guy points his elbow at me whilst getting ready to chop chop me? I'm just going to put my hand on his elbow and totally nullify it. Or, better still, push that elbow hard acorss his face, take his back, and choke the fucker to death.

    WW2 Combatives was fine within the condtraints of the training time allowed. For people who devote more time to fight training? There are much better ways. The downside of those better ways? You don't get to pretend you're a Commando or a secret agent behind enemy lines!
  5. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 9:03pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >>GREAT? MIND BLOWING? If only you were a Martial Noob and never been in a fight maybe. His material rates an OK but definitely not GREAT. <<

    When I saw his tapes, I had first dan in TKD (not that it qualifies me to NOT be a martial Noob). I have also been in 2 fights. I have also been searching for something that'll really work in the streets (because my TKD didn't) and have bought quite a few tapes, from SCARS (go ahead, laugh) to Hock Hockeim stuff, to James Keating and a few other tapes.

    Mind blowing is my opinion, and ok is yours, I think this is subjective and nobody can be said to be wrong, agree? However, so far, I have not seen another instructional series that has impressed me more than Cestari's material. And I have now seen a lot, from Gracie's stuff, to Rodney King (which is very good) to Muay Thai instructionals and Jim Grover's stuff.

    BTW which of his tapes have you seen?

    >>
    Its not that simple. From considerable experience both in and viewing fights they come in all shapes and sizes. However rarely is there spontaneous violence. There is always build up to the violence. Often you will have posturing and peacocking until one feels he HAS to do something especially in social settings like clubs, bars, etc. For truly sudden violence, like muggings or a bumfush, you need quick reflectives and the awareness to see the danger coming, if you can.<<

    I agree, and that is what I was trying to say, perhaps my choice of words was poor. What I meant is that in a street fight, it is not like an MMA fight where both agree to a fight, and then start circling each other.

    I'm sure you won't doubt Geoff Thompson's experience in fighting? He's not an MMA fighter, and uses simple tools and mostly cunning and street experience to defeat people who makes trouble at the clubs he works at. And after so many real life encounters, he still recommends simple tools.
  6. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2006 9:22pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bujutsuboy
    I have the following Cestari tapes:-

    Fundamentals 1
    Fundamentals 2
    Grabs and Holds
    Groundfighting.

    They are nothing special. I used to wince when, on the old Close Combat forum, and later on the Battlefield forum, people would say "Wow Carl! You move so fast!! It's awesome!!!!!"

    He doesn't move that fast. Not at all.

    One of their main techniques is called the "Horizontal Axe Hand"

    Basically think of a Karate chop (Haaaayyyyyyyaa!) done by pointing your elbow at the bad guy and then throwing your hand out at him, a little bit like a back hand in tennis. These guys think this is just about unbeatable!

    Any guy points his elbow at me whilst getting ready to chop chop me? I'm just going to put my hand on his elbow and totally nullify it. Or, better still, push that elbow hard acorss his face, take his back, and choke the fucker to death.

    WW2 Combatives was fine within the condtraints of the training time allowed. For people who devote more time to fight training? There are much better ways. The downside of those better ways? You don't get to pretend you're a Commando or a secret agent behind enemy lines!
    bujutsuboy,
    I'm not a Cestari nuthugger, nor am I a WWII combatives nut. However, when you say "pointing your elbow at the bad guy", when does he ever start an attack that way?

    Remember in the Holds and Grabs series, or is it the fundamentals series, where he teaches you to stand in a bladed stance with your hand held together in front of you (belly height) where (1) one hand holds the wrist of the other, or (2) where you seemingly cross your hands but put one atop the other so you can launch an axe-hand, or (3) put your hand on your chin with the other arm across your chest? Remember his advice to always keep YOUR hands above YOUR opponent's hands, so that you'll always be faster to the target?

    That is where the initial attack is going to come from. So you're saying that when someone's standing that way, you'll put your hand on his elbow to totally nullify it?

    Or you're going to do it when the strike comes? You must have super deadly ninja reflex skills if you can see it coming and then "push that elbow hard across his face, take his back, and choke the fucker to death."

    I've tried this with a friend before, me on the recieving end, and when he did the short axe-hand with DROP-STEP on me, and followed up with chin-jab and knee, after the first axe-hand with drop step, I'm choking and coughing so hard there is no way I can do much anything else. When done without telegraphing, and you don't expect it coming, I don't think it's possible to deflect it if he's standing close to you and your hands are down. With his whole bodyweight behind him with the drop step, that short axe-hand is going to hurt like hell. Give it a try.

    I don't have any pretensions of wanting to be a commando or secret agent, I've served my time in my country's military and that's more than enough for me.
  7. bujutsuboy is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 5:20am


     Style: Self Protection

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have given it a try. The whole technique is a nonsense for a real go, unless you're hitting a guy that doesn't move (like the guy standing there like a dummy in the tapes) or, like Cestari and his crew do, merely hitting a striking dummy that has no arms!

    Cestari totally fails to understand the principles of the pre emptive strike. He shows no appreciation of deception, nor of disguising movement. His idea involves standing totally still and then trying to get a technique home..... No deceptive dialogue, no deceptive movement, no engaging the brain of any kind, nothing. Yes, he'll catch some people out with it, but he is way behind the Geoff Thompson's and Richard Dimitri's of this world.

    I like the bit in Grabs and Holds where he lectures us about how you should NOT have specific defences against specific attacks. No! The small number of strikes in the syllabus should be enough to cover all of it. He then goes on to demonstrate specific defences to specific attacks.......

    I'm not saying his stuff is total crap. If they didn't prattle on about how brilliant it was it would be ok...... It's a bit like a 2nd hand Mini Metro. Yeah, it does the job to an acceptable level.... but if the owner goes on to say it is the best car ever, don't be surprised when people fall over laughing!

    Now we get to Grover, or Kelly McCann. His stuff is ok too. But I have serious concerns about his "SWAMP" principle.

    For those not in the know, SWAMP is a mnemonic that describes how he supposedly generate impact. It goes like this:-

    S - Stay relaxed
    W - Move the weapon first
    A - Accelerate
    M - Move in the direction of the strike
    P - Plunge into the blow

    It is the "weapon first" that trips him up. Look at any powerful blow. The body moves first, with the "weapon" (he means the striking part of the body, usually the hand) follows on, using the mass and acceleration that the body is generating. If you try to use the weapon first it is weak, and is like trying to push a piece of string.

    Now heres the best bit. Watch McCann throw his strikes. Guess what? He doesn't throw the weapon first either! Methinks he is in need of a new mnemonic.
  8. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 5:42am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >>but he is way behind the Geoff Thompson's and Richard Dimitri's of this world.<<

    You are aware that those tapes were made a very looooong time ago don't you? The production quality was horrible, even though the content (to me) was great.

    I agree with you that it will be helpful if those moves were shown against a fully resisting opponent. It's something that I want to see too, never having a chance to train live with the man.

    >>He then goes on to demonstrate specific defences to specific attacks.......<<

    I think that's kind of a blanket statement. What he intended to say was not to have set "patterns" like in traditional martial arts, where you memorise a response to a punch, or a kick or a grab and stuff like that, as he says those kinds of stuff won't work when you're under pressure. What he teaches is to hunt for the next available target to hit instead of memorising set patterns.

    Which is one of the reasons why I liked his stuff so much. I've seen many self-defense tapes including those from Bas Rutten, where you do a certain technique if someone grabbed you a certain way. Cestari's response is that the grab is not the attack, if someone grabbed you, he's grabbing you to do something else to you, like a head-butt, or a knee to the fork, and your response is to axe-hand him, chin-jab him, whichever targets are available. The same response works for a wide variety of scenarios, and doesn't need long term training or memorisation to do.

    The only exception he made was when someone grabbed you from the front grabbing your shirt. His response was to swing an elbow over and duck your head behind that elbow, and take one step back with a leg to prevent getting headbutted or kneed in the crotch. From there it leaves you options to attack back as your body is already torqued for it. I think it's a reasonable exception.

    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what we get from the tapes. I haven't seen Richard Dimitri's stuff, I'll check it out. Perhaps I'll have a different opinion after I watch his stuff.
  9. colonelpong2 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 5:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=bujutsuboy]
    Basically think of a Karate chop (Haaaayyyyyyyaa!) done by pointing your elbow at the bad guy and then throwing your hand out at him, a little bit like a back hand in tennis. These guys think this is just about unbeatable!

    QUOTE]

    Sounds like the **** they tried to teach us in the army. i'll elaborate on the whole thing later if i have time
  10. bujutsuboy is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 7:10pm


     Style: Self Protection

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PPlate - maybe so.

    I liked the Cestari stuff enough when I got it. I just progressed (in my view) onto better things. We all go on our own path.

    The key points to me are 1) we do have more than a week to learn it, so why limit the art to the same stuff as those that DID only have a week and 2) if they are going to rate it so mightily highly, they're writing cheques that their art can't deliver.
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