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  1. bujutsuboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2006 3:36pm


     Style: Self Protection

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think if you outline how to do anything whatsoever you will create a list. That's the weakest criticism yet.
  2. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2006 8:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is Matt Larsen's article from GRAPPLING Magazine. The first of what will hopefully be an ongoing feature.

    http://www.ultimategrapplingmag.com/content/view/41/68/

    Facts of the Battlefield

    In the back of a helicopter flying at 9,000 feet over a dark, remote area of Afghanistan is probably the last place you would expect to see hand-to-hand combat. But that's exactly what happened one night in early 2002, and everyone lived to tell about it because of the actions of one well-trained soldier.

    During an early phase of the war in Afghanistan, while the wreckage of the World Trade Center in New York was still smoldering, a Special Forces team placed 15 Taliban prisoners in the back of a CH-47 Chinook helicopter for transportation to American-controlled territory. The Chinook is a large dual-rotor, heavy-lift helicopter, the kind often seen on the news carrying U.S. troops. For this short trip, the prisoners' hands were bound in front of them and at the time it was determined that only one guard would be needed to watch over them.

    But a few minutes into the nighttime flight, with the prisoners seemingly docile and with thousands of feet of elevation making escape unlikely, the guard, who was watching the prisoners through night-vision goggles-which offer a very restricted peripheral field of view-inadvertently turned his back on one of the prisoners seated near him.

    In the moment it took for the guard to lose sight of him, the prisoner grabbed him with his legs in a triangle-like choke and began to squeeze. The combination of the helicopter's deafening noise and the guard's constricted movement made it impossible for him to signal for help. But an alert door gunner turned and saw the commotion through his own night-vision goggles and moved to help.


    Fall of Death

    The gunner, who had been trained in basic hand-to-hand fighting skills as part of the Modern Army Combatives Program, was tethered to the aircraft with a harness designed to catch him if he fell out, but he applied the rear naked choke from his position behind the prisoner, pulling the attacker and his victim back from the open ramp and the certain death of a fall.

    As he was choking the prisoner, the gunner backed into a second Taliban who dug his teeth into the gunner's backside in an attempt to assist his compatriot. Enduring the pain from the second prisoner's tooth-hold, the door gunner continued to apply pressure on the choke until the first prisoner released the guard. He then struck him in the face with downward elbows, driving him to the floor of the helicopter, where the guard was able to control him long enough to more securely bind him.

    No shot was ever fired, and there was no fiery crash, because of the actions of that aviation crewmember, who reacted with his wits, using fundamental maneuvers he learned at the Army's Combatives School.

    A Way of Life

    These stories may never make the news back in the United States, but as many soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq can attest, hand-to-hand combat is a fact of life in this war and scenes like the one in the Chinook repeat themselves every day.

    For U.S. troops, the modern battlefield is rife with technological advantages, up-armored vehicles (HUMMVs with added armor), high-speed personal protection gear and all sorts of lethal weapons. But hand-to-hand fighting, in which a soldier must be close with the enemy, is still one of the most fundamental aspects of warfare and has become a regular occurrence in Iraq and Afghanistan, even in the most unexpected places.

    The Army Combatives School is taking an aggressive approach toward preparing our soldiers, pushing them to their limits of pain and endurance, and instilling the warrior spirit needed to overcome the fear of closing with the enemy.

    This is the first of many columns in which we will share some of these life-and-death stories and the lessons we have learned from them.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2006 10:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

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    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Here is Matt Larsen's article from GRAPPLING Magazine. The first of what will hopefully be an ongoing feature.

    http://www.ultimategrapplingmag.com/content/view/41/68/
    Good article in support of the Armies H-2-H curriculum, however, I believe the bad protocols for the handling and transportation of battlefield prisoners securely was the real issue of the story. If the correct procedures had been implemented, the H-2-H scenario may have been avoided.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  4. bujutsuboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2006 6:04am


     Style: Self Protection

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good article, and good comment from KF.
  5. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2006 12:15pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well from what I have learn of Fairbacks. Since the WWII it has been more or less incorporated into any European armies in the 50-60.
    Having the great joy of being part of the French air force, I have been taught some of the stuff (and yes before anyone asks, it include with flag waiving how ever it is restricted to waving at German forces only).

    The base principle of the army at the time was that you relatively expendable so h2h was never taught to your average squaddies, unless SAS and any allied equivalent as well and commando and other infiltration forces.
    Some of the techniques are really there so that you can do something, the gun disarm are really like that.
    As you all surely know it better to be shot doing something not to be than getting shot full stop, so the idea is it may work and since they are going to shot you anyway.
    (German forces did not see like commando that much, especially when their troop where at the receiving end of an earlier assault.) We could express the same about disarm technique against SMG that you find in Krav Maga. Granted it is not super duper but you are not in supper duper situation to start with.

    Now what I have understood from fairbaks combative is that you are using you hand to get a knife, a knife to get a gun.
    I think it is the same idea in medieval wrestling there does not seems to be that much ground work (where both combatants are on the ground in a MMA or BJJ way) though some medieval German manual have put a lot of emphasis on pin him and then stab him.
    but everyone and is dog had a dagger or a Messer (katana length knife or fashion)
    So the idea was really to gain momentarily advantage so that you can stab them in peace.

    phil
  6. theardri is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/12/2006 1:56pm


     Style: Combatives Pankration BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume
    Well from what I have learn of Fairbacks. Since the WWII it has been more or less incorporated into any European armies in the 50-60.
    .

    phil
    You mean fairbairn I think (could be wrong)
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/12/2006 4:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Good article in support of the Armies H-2-H curriculum, however, I believe the bad protocols for the handling and transportation of battlefield prisoners securely was the real issue of the story. If the correct procedures had been implemented, the H-2-H scenario may have been avoided.
    I agree but **** doesn't always go right. It just takes a split second for things to turn south even if you are doing things right. The trick is to be able to recover from it when it does.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2006 1:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    I agree but **** doesn't always go right. It just takes a split second for things to turn south even if you are doing things right. The trick is to be able to recover from it when it does.
    That's assuming you get a second chance, tactically, it can get you killed as what occured with CIA paramilitary operative, Johnny Spann, at the taliban prison uprising as he was interrogating prisoners.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  9. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2006 4:17am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theardri
    You mean fairbairn I think (could be wrong)
    nope you are quite right
    Fairbairn it is.

    cheers phil
  10. theardri is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/13/2006 8:00am


     Style: Combatives Pankration BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume
    nope you are quite right
    Fairbairn it is.

    cheers phil
    No worries, Just as I train in Combatives with some derivation from Applegate Fairbairn Sykes, and Nelson, I did not want to assume there was not another name hiding in there I did not remember.

    Slan

    Gareth
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