Dog Brothers Photos Up - June 06

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 8/06/2006 3:28pm

Originally Posted by AnnaTrocity

If I wanted to come play at one of these things, would I be able to? I'd assume that there arent really any chicks doing it but I've no qualms about beating guys up with sticks.

Good news and bad news.

Yes, women are allowed to fight at these gatherings and many have. Check out the photo album from November of 2004. There were three female fighters and there fights were scrappy as hell. Good technique, lots of heart and they went all out. Very entertaining to watch and I even posted a write up about one named Linda in particular here just after the event. Not sure she fights anymore though.

The bad news is that women fight women and men fight men. At least that is my understanding. The potential to get seriously hurt at these events may be the issue (don't know) as the only people who stop the fights are the fighters. No referees.

I think it would be sweet if you came and represented. The best way is to sign up and post in the open forum of the website and make your intentions known that you are looking for female/s fighters to fight at either the June or November event. That way you can line up some fights. Otherwise I don't think it will happen. (They tend not to just show up). :cry:

There is a girl that trains with us in North Hollywood but she isn't serious and I doubt she will want to fight. (Especially with your level of experience.) If you decide let me or Poidog know. You can come train with us prior to the event and we can give you some good inside advice. Or at least, Poi can... I'm still low on the totem pole...

**Mjelva** · Posted On: 8/06/2006 7:50pm

I think it's great that they do full contact stick fighting. I really do.
But that doesn't excuse poor grappling.

#1: Incredibly shitty armbar. If he does have control of the knife, as you say, it's hardly for more than a couple of seconds, and he's about to get passed.
#2: Crossed ankles
#3: Both knees on the ground, no penetration, no drive, no leverage, no nothing.

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 8/06/2006 8:46pm

Originally Posted by Mjelva

I think it's great that they do full contact stick fighting. I really do.
But that doesn't excuse poor grappling.

#1: Incredibly shitty armbar. If he does have control of the knife, as you say, it's hardly for more than a couple of seconds, and he's about to get passed.
#2: Crossed ankles
#3: No penetration, both knees on the ground, no drive.

You're right and now I see the light!
:beatdead:

There is no excuse for poor grappling from people who may not even know how to grapple or from people who didn't want to grapple but were unfortuantlry put there by someone who did. I'm going to write the Dog Brothers and tell them to ban all people who are not blue belts or above in BJJ as the pictures will look horrendous on the internet. While I'm at it I see some terrible MT techniques that shouldn't be allowed either! What the hell was Marc Scott thinking when he teeped Dog Richard and got whacked across the thigh!

Along that same thought process I suppose any good FMA guy will critique my fights and pictures and tell me, "good application of punching, kicking and grappling Red Elvis but shittastic stick work" or perhaps "I think it's great Red Elvis that you decided to fight full contact with sticks but that doesn't excuse your poor FMA skills." Then I'd feel all bad at my lack of stick fighting ability (only been doing it for less than a year after all) and I'd give up and go back to BJJ and MT.

Or, I could take it as a lesson that perhaps my stick work needs improvement, go and train it more, grab my balls and fight again in November to see how my shittastic stickwork has improved. Just as I'm sure the guy I out-grappled in June is training his ass off in ground fighting after having been put in the triangle choke. Yes, I think I will do just that as the whole point of the Gathering is to test yourself after all. :toothy5:

All joking aside, I've been doing BJJ since you were seven years old and I would have to say that in my three fights even I probably looked like a crappler. Something about getting punched in the face repeatedly, head butted and hit with the butt end of a stick changed my game slightly and I missed some good sub and sweep opportunities. This was foreign ground for me and I learned alot by doing some things right and some things wrong. Lucky for me they will let me fight again even though I was clearly outclassed on my feet.

You live in Norway? A bit far from Switzerland no doubt but if you ever get a chance to train with this guy I highly recommend it. (Notice the head shots with the stick around 1:20+ and how it changed the grappling.)

He's also doing a seminar in Sweden which is *somewhat* close to you.

October 28 + 29, 2006
Sweden Seminar
with: Guro “Lonely Dog”
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

**Mjelva** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 5:02am

I'm not saying they should quit. I'm saying their grappling has room for improvement.
If critiquing someone's performance is frowned upon, exactly why does Bullshido still exist?
Why is it ok to criticize a wing chunner who doesn't know how to grapple, but suddenly inappropriate to criticize a dog brother who doesn't know how to grapple? It makes no sense.

I mean, for the love of god, the guy is crossing his ankles in backmount!

**MrMcFu** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 5:28am

Originally Posted by Mjelva

I think it's great that they do full contact stick fighting. I really do.
But that doesn't excuse poor grappling.

#1: Incredibly shitty armbar. If he does have control of the knife, as you say, it's hardly for more than a couple of seconds, and he's about to get passed.
#2: Crossed ankles
#3: Both knees on the ground, no penetration, no drive, no leverage, no nothing.

Yeah only crapplers cross their ankles. Freaking Dog Brothers . . .

**daGorilla** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 11:19am

Originally Posted by Mjelva

I'm not saying they should quit. I'm saying their grappling has room for improvement.
If critiquing someone's performance is frowned upon, exactly why does Bullshido still exist?
Why is it ok to criticize a wing chunner who doesn't know how to grapple, but suddenly inappropriate to criticize a dog brother who doesn't know how to grapple? It makes no sense.

I mean, for the love of god, the guy is crossing his ankles in backmount!

1) Your critiquing still photos. A frozen instant in time -- optimal or sub-optimal or even shitty -- does not necessarily represent the entire technique or exchange.

2) Criticize positively and constructively if you want to crticize at all -- don't just post "hee hee crappling hee hee neener neener". OK, I may be exaggerating a bit, but you get the point. :)

3) Ever grapple with someone (or yourself) wielding a knife or stick? I suspect it makes a huge difference in your responses to technique. I've trained FMA, and I'm a BJJ noob. I've never tried combining the two, but I bet it changes alot of things dramatically. Even if you choke out the knife-guy, it takes little effort for him to bury that knife in your body somewhere if you don't deal with it...

I don't doubt that most of the DB are probably not grapplers -- nothing wrong with that. They go all out anyway in any range with and without weapons, and my hat is off to them for that -- even though I think it's a little slice of crazy. :)

-dagorilla

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 3:04pm

Originally Posted by Mjelva

I'm not saying they should quit. I'm saying their grappling has room for improvement.

My grappling has plenty of room for improvement and like I mentioned earlier I have been doing BJJ since you were 7 years old and I was wrestling in state championships when you were 4 years old. Are you that good that you have no room for improvement? I hope for your sake not!

Originally Posted by Mjelva

If critiquing someone's performance is frowned upon, exactly why does Bullshido still exist?.

No problem with critiquing at all if you actually formalize your critique and back it up. Your first arguement was basically "I see shittastic grappling" based upon still photos and then your second arguement was then posting said photos. When I countered that you can't judge a still photograph and gave my rationale you followed with an arguement that didn't even address mine.

I.e. I explained that perhaps the guy wasn't going for an armbar, indeed wasn't in the position for an armbar and still you countered with "shitty armbar". Hello? Maybe he had an armbar and his opponent being the better grappler was already passing his guard? Maybe it was all the guy could do to keep control of the knife hand at that point? You don't know these things and neither do I. They could both be BJJ blackbelts or they could both be wing chunners. Therefore I think your rationale (or lack thereof) is lacking evidence hence my arguement. Just as you are allowed to critque (which is why bullshido is here), people are allowed to refute and debate your critique. That is what I am doing and I have nothing against you personally. Just trying to figure out how you arrived at your immediate conclusions and debating them.

Originally Posted by Mjelva

Why is it ok to criticize a wing chunner who doesn't know how to grapple, but suddenly inappropriate to criticize a dog brother who doesn't know how to grapple? It makes no sense.

I would never critque someone who didn't know how to grapple unless they were trying:

A. To claim they did and they clearly didn't
B. To claim they can defeat it with said style (Which I think WC does often)
C. They were trying to teach it without experience (crappling)
D. So on and so forth...

Why it might be inappropriate to citicize someone at the Gathering is that none of these guys are claiming to be excellent grapplers. None are claiming there style is going to defeat grappling with their deadly FMA skills. None are trying to teach the deadly grapple who themselves don't know the deadly grapple. (Some are actually BJJ teachers though but you didn't post their pics). These guys are in a full contact stick fight and may know how to grapple and may not. Maybe they didn't even want to grapple. The point of the event is to try your knife or stick fighting in a no holds barred scenario with no judges, no points and no referees. Your looking at it with the wrong paradigm. Just as I am not going to criticize a world champion thai fighter who doesn't know how to grapple. (**Unless he claims he does**).

BTW - You weren't criticizing a Dog Brother either. You were critizing some random people who had the balls to fight in that setting. Anybody can come from anywhere and fight. It doesn't make them a Dog Brother. It doesn't cost any money, it's completely free, you can use any style and you can use any weapon as long as you can find a partner to fight. Even you could come and show your deadly grappling and it would be cool. You did critique a "Candidate Dog Brother" who you probably know on this site as PoiDog. But again I will not speak for him.

FYI - A Dog Brother name is only given to people who have fought in numerous events and have proven themselves to be good solid fighters. Some have backrounds in grappling, some have backrounds in MT and Krabi Krabong, and some have none of these. Most fighters at these events are not Dog Brothers. (Just trying to help educate you btw so you can make better arguements moving forward).

Originally Posted by Mjelva

I mean, for the love of god, the guy is crossing his ankles in backmount!

HA ha... I think God will forgive him. If not then I'm going to hell too as I've done it. :new_vampv

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 3:57pm

I have to say you people have balls. And by that, I mean those that engage in full contact stick fighting.

:bowdown:

**Mjelva** · Posted On: 8/07/2006 4:22pm

I have room for improvement, as anyone else. If I do stupid ****, I prefer to be called on it, so I can improve my game.
Therefore, I also call other people on it when I see what I consider stupid ****.

Criticizing stick fighters for flawed grappling is no different than criticizing a wrestler for poor striking. Both are fine in my opinion.