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  1. chaosexmachina is offline
    chaosexmachina's Avatar

    Unexpected Elbow

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    Feb 2004
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    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    4,450

    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 3:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA/Pankration

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like to think of half guard the way Eddie Bravo does; don't think of it as a half passed guard, think of it as halfway to a sweep or halfway to taking the back.
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

    El Guapo says dance!
  2. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Aug 2004
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    Stockholm, Sweden
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2006 5:31am


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting. I was gonna do a thread about halfguard. Probably 95% of my sweeps come from my halfguard these days. I've always thought that it had to do with the fact that most guys I trained with undervalued the half guard, you know, thought of it only as a last chance to get back to full guard and therefore undertrained it.
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  3. 'sco is offline

    Registered Member

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    Mar 2006
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    GA
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2006 7:27pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i practically live in half-guard. i feel more comfortable sweeping from there, than from full guard. eddie bravo's lockdown works beautifully, and sets up sweeps on the new guys by itself when they get frustrated, and i always feel great whenever i can pull off aesopian's "fav. half-guard sweep"

    even though i'm usually on my back, i'd rather get a good top position 'cuz the subs are alot easier from there. plus i'm a noob, so i desprately need to work positioning. i try to pull a sub from bottom if it's there, but whenever i go against anyone with some skill, i'm usual clinging to half-guard, or trying to shrimp to it from under side control.
  4. DelDesert is offline

    Featherweight

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    Aug 2006
    Posts
    11

    Posted On:
    8/13/2006 3:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PoleFighter
    Interesting. I was gonna do a thread about halfguard. Probably 95% of my sweeps come from my halfguard these days. I've always thought that it had to do with the fact that most guys I trained with undervalued the half guard, you know, thought of it only as a last chance to get back to full guard and therefore undertrained it.
    start the thread bro, id be interested in whatever question you have about the 1/2 and the answers you got.
  5. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

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    Sep 2004
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    Philadelphia
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    881

    Posted On:
    8/18/2006 4:43pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DelDesert
    as you guys progress (or progressed, if youre already high level), do you notice your focus in your guard shifting more towards sweeping than submitting? several things bring this question to mind. the first of course, is my own training. against guys my own level or slightly higher, i can play the submission game and do reasonably well. however, against higher level guys, i notice that their posture and submission defense is so developed that i find it difficult to even get off an attempt. now before you say "duh, its because theyre just better than you", i would also point out that even at the highest levels of competition it doesnt seem people get submissions from their back very often.


    The guard game isnt complete unless you have both submissions and sweeps. While many people feel that subs are the way to go, sweeps work well for the simple fact that it allows you to reverse your opponent and go on the attack. At the moment, you probably only have a few subs from the bottom, so you see yourself as focusing more on sweeps at the moment. Give yourself some time to get a few sweeps in your arsenal and as your opponents start defending your sweeps they'll start opening themselves back up for your old submissions.

    The guard is a rather neutral position- its not easy to catch someone who of similar skill level because you simply dont have the same leverage to apply as you do from positions such as the mount, back, etc. Matter of fact, you could say that the guard is the least of all positions where you can attack your opponent with submissions, for the simple fact that you're on your back. As far as not seeing subs from the guard at the highest level of competition, thats not true. Roger caught Xandre with a triangle at this years Pan Ams, Galvoa submitted his first opponent in the open last year with an X choke (and nearly got his own arm broken this year when his first opponent caught him with an armbar from closed guard).

    In regards to getting more sweeps than submissions, thats just common sense. It doesnt take much to deduce that being swept isnt as dangerous and being submitted, since you're still in the fight. Because of this, people are going to be much more wary of submissions than they are of sweeps. Of course, the way to counter this is to attack with your sweeps. If he accepts the game, you sweep, get the top position and two points. If he keeps fighting, you get him thinking about not getting swept and when he starts droping his weight and basing out, thats when you have the opportunity for the submission.




    Quote Originally Posted by DelDesert
    some of my feelings are confirmed every now and then when i hear someone talk about how closed guard is dead in high level BJJ. of course, with a shift of strategy towards sweeping and obtaining dominant positions on top rather than trying to submit from guard, different types of guard that are more suitable towards sweeping seem to be more popular at the high level (butterfly, half, x-guard is getting popular too)
    First off, the very rules of competition favor sweep attempts to submission attempts. Submissions are all or nothing. Sweeps give you two points and possibly the win if the score is close enough. People are fighting to win, and the safe game is in sweeping your opponent to get points on the board before time runs out. You can nearly submit someone and still lose by something as trivial as a 2 point takedown. Take MMA for example, in which near submissions are worth much more than attaining any kind of dominant position is, and you start to see more sub attempts from the bottom.

    As people get more and more technical, its going to be more difficult to submit them, so different strategies are needed to address this. As was stated before, the guard doesnt offer much control over your opponent. As Yrkoon also stated, the top position will give you many more options with respect to how you want to finish your opponent. You can dictate how you want to attack and where you want your pressure to be while on top. You also have your opponent effectively pinned to the mat, making escape much more difficult. This is why at the top levels you see many more successfull top players than you do bottom players. Also take into account that a successfull sweep often lands you in a good position, such as a dominant half guard, cross side, or in some cases mount.

    I used to think the same way in how your dividing all the positions of BJJ- the guard and the sweeps and submissions available. Eventually as your jiu jitsu starts to get better and better you stop thinking of which positions are your bread and butter and your game starts to become more complete. Eventually you will no longer need to have someone in your guard to submit them, or you wont always need to be on top to secure victory. You'll start to think like a skilled jiu jitsu fighter thinks- "I'll take whatever he gives me" with your ultimate goal being the submission of your opponent, regardless of what position hes in when he gives it to you. In thinking like this, you start to win all the small battles of a fight in order to win the war. Sure, a sub from the guard is better than a sweep, but with the success of that one sweep, you're in that much better of a situation and that much closer to victory than you previously were.
  6. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    881

    Posted On:
    8/18/2006 4:43pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DelDesert
    as you guys progress (or progressed, if youre already high level), do you notice your focus in your guard shifting more towards sweeping than submitting? several things bring this question to mind. the first of course, is my own training. against guys my own level or slightly higher, i can play the submission game and do reasonably well. however, against higher level guys, i notice that their posture and submission defense is so developed that i find it difficult to even get off an attempt. now before you say "duh, its because theyre just better than you", i would also point out that even at the highest levels of competition it doesnt seem people get submissions from their back very often.


    The guard game isnt complete unless you have both submissions and sweeps. While many people feel that subs are the way to go, sweeps work well for the simple fact that it allows you to reverse your opponent and go on the attack. At the moment, you probably only have a few subs from the bottom, so you see yourself as focusing more on sweeps at the moment. Give yourself some time to get a few sweeps in your arsenal and as your opponents start defending your sweeps they'll start opening themselves back up for your old submissions.

    The guard is a rather neutral position- its not easy to catch someone who of similar skill level because you simply dont have the same leverage to apply as you do from positions such as the mount, back, etc. Matter of fact, you could say that the guard is the least of all positions where you can attack your opponent with submissions, for the simple fact that you're on your back. As far as not seeing subs from the guard at the highest level of competition, thats not true. Roger caught Xandre with a triangle at this years Pan Ams, Galvoa submitted his first opponent in the open last year with an X choke (and nearly got his own arm broken this year when his first opponent caught him with an armbar from closed guard).

    In regards to getting more sweeps than submissions, thats just common sense. It doesnt take much to deduce that being swept isnt as dangerous and being submitted, since you're still in the fight. Because of this, people are going to be much more wary of submissions than they are of sweeps. Of course, the way to counter this is to attack with your sweeps. If he accepts the game, you sweep, get the top position and two points. If he keeps fighting, you get him thinking about not getting swept and when he starts droping his weight and basing out, thats when you have the opportunity for the submission.




    Quote Originally Posted by DelDesert
    some of my feelings are confirmed every now and then when i hear someone talk about how closed guard is dead in high level BJJ. of course, with a shift of strategy towards sweeping and obtaining dominant positions on top rather than trying to submit from guard, different types of guard that are more suitable towards sweeping seem to be more popular at the high level (butterfly, half, x-guard is getting popular too)
    First off, the very rules of competition favor sweep attempts to submission attempts. Submissions are all or nothing. Sweeps give you two points and possibly the win if the score is close enough. People are fighting to win, and the safe game is in sweeping your opponent to get points on the board before time runs out. You can nearly submit someone and still lose by something as trivial as a 2 point takedown. Take MMA for example, in which near submissions are worth much more than attaining any kind of dominant position is, and you start to see more sub attempts from the bottom.

    As people get more and more technical, its going to be more difficult to submit them, so different strategies are needed to address this. As was stated before, the guard doesnt offer much control over your opponent. As Yrkoon also stated, the top position will give you many more options with respect to how you want to finish your opponent. You can dictate how you want to attack and where you want your pressure to be while on top. You also have your opponent effectively pinned to the mat, making escape much more difficult. This is why at the top levels you see many more successfull top players than you do bottom players. Also take into account that a successfull sweep often lands you in a good position, such as a dominant half guard, cross side, or in some cases mount.

    I used to think the same way in how your dividing all the positions of BJJ- the guard and the sweeps and submissions available. Eventually as your jiu jitsu starts to get better and better you stop thinking of which positions are your bread and butter and your game starts to become more complete. Eventually you will no longer need to have someone in your guard to submit them, or you wont always need to be on top to secure victory. You'll start to think like a skilled jiu jitsu fighter thinks- "I'll take whatever he gives me" with your ultimate goal being the submission of your opponent, regardless of what position hes in when he gives it to you. In thinking like this, you start to win all the small battles of a fight in order to win the war. Sure, a sub from the guard is better than a sweep, but with the success of that one sweep, you're in that much better of a situation and that much closer to victory than you previously were.
  7. DelDesert is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    11

    Posted On:
    8/19/2006 3:08am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thank you Gumby, i appreciate you taking the time to write that all out.

    you have to understand my position, im still rather new to Bjj, and the guard is extremely interesting to me. it wasnt until recently that i noticed that im much more successful playing a top game than a guard game, especially against people of my own or higher skill level. so then i started thinking when i was on my back, "maybe i should try to get on top" and thats where this question came from.

    once again i appreciate your response.
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