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  1. switch245 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 12:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is Gregory Fong's i-chuan in Oregon a Bullshido CMA school?

    http://i-chuan.net/
    I started in this school almost a month ago, taking his 7 star mantis classes. My brother keeps saying this school is a mcdojo. I dont beleive that is the case, because unlike many mcdojos, we focus on physical conditioning as well as technique. You wouldnt believe how muscular our 60 year old instructor is. (yeah its sorta racist but isnt it usually good to have an old chinese man teach you cma?) And also, during forms, he teaches us practical application of the moves. The thing i most admire is, he teaches and trains the kids as hard and the same as the adults. Sometimes even pushing them harder. Tell me your opinions
  2. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 1:31am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know next to nothing about I-Chuan.

    Fong quotes study with Doctor Yu Yong Nian. He is the real deal (as far as I know).

    I browsed some of the docs he wrote and much of what he writes (the functional) is similiar things taught in "internal" arts. I do not know how much of the non-functional is accurate.

    I am personally not a fan of Mantis, but that is just me. I also do not have a lot of experience with the Tai Chi he lists, but seems accurate.

    If it was me, I would do the I-Chuan, but if you like the Mantis, dont let me tell ya what to do:)

    Looks ok to me for what it is worth.
  3. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 5:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you spar? Under what kind of ruleset?
  4. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 6:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You appear to be confusing some terminology:

    McDojo: School that operates with the foremost intent to milk as much money as possible out of students.

    Bullshido: A martial arts concept, technique or idea that is proclaimed to be true but not true in objective reality.

    It's quite common for schools that teach bullshido to also be mcdojos but this isn't always the case.

    Now onto your post:

    As soon as I click the link to your school I see this:



    With the words: "Sifu Fong demonstrates combat stance" under it. To cut a long story short, that's not a combat stance.

    Hard conditioning doesn't mean the techniques you learn will work in a fight. Nothing says I can't give you some brutal exercises before progressing onto chambered punches in horse stance.

    Muscular does not equate to instructed techniques working.

    When he shows the "practical applications" what form does this take? I'll take a shot in the dark and guess he does it on compliant partners only under tightly choreographed scenarios. As tough, muscular and well conditioned as he is, you can't tell anything about the viability of techniques from a dead demo. Does he, or anyone else pull these techniques off against resisting opponents who use realistic, broken rhythm attacks?

    Pretty much everything I've seen on Chinese martial arts suggests to me that they are silly. The tiny fraction that doesn't look silly has been altered significantly.

    Have you seen the Matt Thornton videos on aliveness? Please view these videos:
    http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...=matt+thornton
    http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...=matt+thornton

    This cuts right to the source of the question. Does your school train with aliveness? If yes, then it's OK. If not, they are bullshitting you.
  5. isol8d is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 8:22am


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do not think your Sifu is selling you bullshido, and he's does not appear to be running a McDojo

    That being said, he's also probably not training you to fight in a cage or on the "street"...

    "Daily kung fu practice provides an energetic aerobic workout well suited to teenagers and young adults. Through a series of punching and kicking drills, students are taught to coordinate hands and feet with speed, focus, and timing with the ultimate aim of developing and using power efficiently."

    "Similarly, I do not focus my attention on the so-called practical applications of the various individual movements in the forms I teach. The true meaning of a given movement in a form is not its application, but rather the unlimited potential of the mind to provide muscular and skeletal support for that movement. In the end, a martial arts form is simply a teaching ool to help the student learn to integrate mind and body. Once the student has learned to do that, he or she may continue to practice the form for fun or discard it in favor of something more spontaneous."

    Don't ask us, talk to your Sifu if you think he's selling you bullshido.
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 11:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    As soon as I click the link to your school I see this:



    With the words: "Sifu Fong demonstrates combat stance" under it. To cut a long story short, that's not a combat stance.
    Actually, if you read the article Fong wrote on "combat stance", you would quickly realize that his definition of "combat" within the context of "combat stance" is not the same as what you are expecting.

    What Fong talks about in his article on "combat stance" is only very vaguely alluded to in some of the other definitions of the word "combat". This is more likely a case of a term translated from one language which doesn't exactly fit the English word choice of translation. Thus, just because you read a word which is one of your "hot buttons", I suspect you made a snap judgment as to the picture.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 1:31pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by switch245
    http://i-chuan.net/
    I started in this school almost a month ago, taking his 7 star mantis classes. My brother keeps saying this school is a mcdojo. I dont beleive that is the case, because unlike many mcdojos, we focus on physical conditioning as well as technique. You wouldnt believe how muscular our 60 year old instructor is. (yeah its sorta racist but isnt it usually good to have an old chinese man teach you cma?) And also, during forms, he teaches us practical application of the moves. The thing i most admire is, he teaches and trains the kids as hard and the same as the adults. Sometimes even pushing them harder. Tell me your opinions
    1. What is your purpose for studying martial arts? then ask yourself, is this fong fellow going to give you what you want?
    2. Do you enjoy the classes? Do you feel you are getting something out of it? If so, then who cares what your brother thinks? This question, btw, is only relevant if what fong teaches is what you are actually looking for.
    3. It is not necessarily so that an old chinese guy is best for teaching cma. in fact, some of the best martial artists i've trained with have been quite young, and definitely not asian.

    Getting back to question #1...if you are looking for an art that has a sense of tradition, lets you get a rigorous work out, can give you some skills for self defense, and is something that you can carry with you into old age, then go ahead, and try i-chuan.

    If you are looking for something that will give you realistic skill sets that you can use either in the ring or in the street, then you should take a closer examination of this school - not that it won't work, but there may be other arts (i.e. kyokushin, judo, bjj, Muay Thai) that are more efficient...but they come with a cost (i.e. intense training, certain mindset, etc).

    Based on what I'm reading, Fong doesn't seem to be excessively marketing his material, excessively catering to children, and from what you say, it sounds like he takes the training seriously. That doesn't make it a Mcdojo in my eyes.

    Re: the bullshido comment - I don't see any blatant claims by Fong of what he is capable of...in fact it seems that he adheres to a pretty traditional view of chinese martial arts...so I would not call his stuff bullshido either.
  8. metarat is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 3:37pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    His lineage sound authentic. You'll never get any kudos from the serious cagefighting crowd, but if you currently consider the training to be "hard" and or "challenging", and feel like its making you stronger and taking you out of your old paradigm, I say go with it.
  9. WennyVW is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2007 12:04am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BSL, Bagua, Xing I & More

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMHO - From what read about him, seen him do, and talked to him about (and yes, I live down the road from Chinatown Portland) he's good. I'm actually looking into a few things that I'm questioning myself, but all in all, he's a great teacher, his students seem to be good, and he's a really nice guy to boot!

    Out of the very few traditional CMA teachers in this area, he'd be one of the few I'd actually go to. But since I'm already involved in one, I'm going to stay where I'm at!!!

    HTH -
    WendyVW
  10. switch245 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2007 3:24am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by isol8d
    I do not think your Sifu is selling you bullshido, and he's does not appear to be running a McDojo

    That being said, he's also probably not training you to fight in a cage or on the "street"...

    "Daily kung fu practice provides an energetic aerobic workout well suited to teenagers and young adults. Through a series of punching and kicking drills, students are taught to coordinate hands and feet with speed, focus, and timing with the ultimate aim of developing and using power efficiently."

    "Similarly, I do not focus my attention on the so-called practical applications of the various individual movements in the forms I teach. The true meaning of a given movement in a form is not its application, but rather the unlimited potential of the mind to provide muscular and skeletal support for that movement. In the end, a martial arts form is simply a teaching ool to help the student learn to integrate mind and body. Once the student has learned to do that, he or she may continue to practice the form for fun or discard it in favor of something more spontaneous."

    Don't ask us, talk to your Sifu if you think he's selling you bullshido.
    Where did you find these quotes? i would like to look into that. What is the name of your scgool wenny?

    oh and yes, we do spar, at higher levels of training, students put on those mma style gloves (or sometimes bare knuckle) and spar. Also, on the site he says its free sparring.
    Last edited by switch245; 3/27/2007 3:43am at .
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