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  1. Aesopian is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 8:32am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the debate of "What is a fundamental? What is a basic?" is an interesting one, and I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. But when it is being posed by a white belt whose training consists of Jiu-Jitsu Unleashed and subfighter.com, I become less concerned about the philosophical nature of the question and more about how you are becoming a catch wrestler by gooning around with some buddies and trying to "hook" each other.

    Still, while I was writing my list of questions, I was wondering why I consider these skills to be basic and fundamental. Is it because someone said so? Is it because I have preconceived ideas? Is it just because they are what I learned first? Does it have to do with how common they are? Common to who: the trained or untrained? Can something uncommon still be basic? Does it have to do with how many people can easily learn and do it? What if it is "simple" but people still have trouble with it? Are different techniques "basic" for different reasons?

    Sadly, I don't have any deep, soul-searching answers to these Mysteries of Life.

    But I do know that if I take two people, and I work one through my list of skills, and I have the other just do a bunch of recently popularized submissions, the prior will outperform the latter. He will handle himself better in more diverse positions and improvise better when in new or unknown situations. He will also find himself in better positions to do any of the submissions should I start teaching those too.

    Maybe I should feel guilty for not being able to answer WHY on a metaphysical level, but actual experience will show that what I say to do just works better.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 8/03/2006 8:36am at .
  2. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 8:43am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why? Because you don't really ingest the principles of BJJ unless you actualize the basics.

    In this case, I would think one would always surrender superior position with the inevitabl'e results.

    The point of experience is the key, as you already pointed out.
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 9:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Submit, submit, submit!!!!!!!! That was how my training began. It was not until after I knew a bunch of "cool" submissions that I realized I could not submit anyone who had even a basic understanding of grappling mechanics.

    Point being, as has been stated by others here, you can apply a tight arm triangle from side mount on a compliant or mildly resisting opponent, BUT, other than that, you're lost. Think of it as a road map with the starting point "A" being you in your opponents guard and the ending point "ZZ" being the perfect arm triangle from side control. All of the "basics" as well as some not so basics fill in the gaps between "A" and "ZZ". Against an experienced grappler you will never make it to "ZZ" unless you know exactly how to control him, and yourself, to get there. Also, knowledge of the map, i.e., a firm understanding of positions and transition from major and minor positions, will often show side routes or alternate submission opppotunities depending on how your opponent reacts to your movement (position/transition).

    The basics, i.e., answering Aeso's initial questions will greatly assist you in mapping out your game and making your game more effective.
  4. Moleculo is offline
    Moleculo's Avatar

    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 12:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: MT/SUB GRAPPLING

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This may go without saying but if the Gracies had never improvised or otherwise developed an "unorthidox" style, the world would be poorer for it, BUT as they say you need to know the rules before you can break them and that's why it is important to have all the nuts and bolts before you can build your giant grappling robot of doom.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 12:45pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcFu
    Try rolling without subs, work on transitions when you get in a superior position.
    Pay attention to this statement to help fill in some of the things you're missing until you have a qualified instructor.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  6. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 1:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whe I look at Aeso's post I don't see it as asking whether or not what we consider basic moves are mastered but whether or not basic SKILLS are in good shape.

    Can you escape a headlock pretty well? Not "can you escape it with basic move XYZ" but "have you developed a sound headlock escape with moves YOU are comfortable with?" If the answer is yes it may not be so important as to which techniques you use but the techniques work as good sound go to moves for YOU.

    If these different moves are ones you can pull off high percentage on a majority of opponents I think they become basic moves for you. Basic moves may just be subjective. We make it seem like a basic move is objective because "everyone else" learns them as such.

    I'd advise you have your friend learn good defense to your exotic moves, and if you can still pull them off, they are basic moves you should keep.
  7. theraydiator is offline
    theraydiator's Avatar

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: no gi bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for some sobering advice.

    I don't want to be a crappler (and a sub working against someone who's never seen it doesn't prove anything), and I think the best thing for me is to put my training in someone else's hands for a while.

    Also, I don't want to leave the wrong impression. It's not that I don't care about positioning - I know that has to be priority #1. I wasn't looking to address that in this particular thread, but it looks like the best advice is to just forget about exotic subs anyway and just try to escape and improve position.

    I'm also sure I only asked all these questions because I was sitting at my computer thinking about BJJ when I should have been training with my instructor.

    If this thread belongs in Gitmo instead of DHS, I apologize - I expected to talk about whether 1 arm triangle is more beginner appropriate than another, or something like that, but I can see that the general consensus is that beginners should be concentrating on base, positioning, escapes, and transitions (and shouldn't be so worried about who's subbing who and how).
    Last edited by theraydiator; 8/03/2006 1:15pm at .
    -Jordan
  8. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

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    Seattle (Ballard), WA
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 1:51pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Focus on positional work, as others have stated. Until you can absolutely control people from side control, kesa, north south, mount, back mount, etc., there's no reason to even worry about the submissions that come from those positions. Ditto for stuff from the bottom. Unless you can control people from your guard, sweep them, escape from side control, mount, etc., there's no reason to be concerned about attacks from the bottom. They just don't work if you aren't comfortable with moving your hips, shrimping, making and taking space, etc.

    I rolled with a big strong guy a little while back who caught me in his guard. I'd posture up and begin a pass, and he'd desperately try to drop triangles on me. I was like WTF? You are in no position to triangle me. I'd pass, control, submit, then we'd repeat the whole process. Now, I'm definitely not an uber-badass, but my positional work, especially from the top is fairly decent. This guy obviously had figured out what a triangle was, but had no idea how to set me up and actually get into position to apply it.

    I've got a feeling that against anyone with decent positional grappling skills, you could find yourself in a similar position to that guy. "How do I make it work?" Position, position, position.
  9. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 2:35pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator

    The guy I did most of my training with this summer is also white belt, and the subs he gets on me are generally Kimuras, Guillotines, and Armbars, and RNC's (what I've heard called 'the basics').

    He always says, "Jordan, you should be focusing on the simple, basic techniques like me."

    I always respond, "But Dave, what makes my techniques any less basic or more complicated than yours? Once you understand how a technique works, and you can apply it on a resisting opponent, no matter which technique it is, isn't it a simple, basic technique at that point?"
    In addition to echoing the above about position before submission, I'd say that you should focus on "basic" techniques first because they're the most adaptable and most reliably applied. An RNC or guillotine is a high-percentage move that will work anywhere, anytime--gi, no-gi, MMA, street fight on lava, you name it--but a lot of exotic stuff isn't much use outside sport JJ. You don't see a lot of De La Riva guard in MMA.
  10. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 3:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Blah.
    God dammit, you ruined my day! Here I was thinking "hey, I'm getting better at BJJ now" and you burst my bubble. Why do you hate America?
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