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  1. theraydiator is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 7:57pm

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     Style: no gi bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    My style is unorthodox, but OF COURSE it rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Zankou
    That's some exotic stuff you're into for someone who has just been training bjj for one year.
    That was Zankou's response when he learned my favorite sub and the length of my experience in BJJ at the same time.

    So the question is: Is exotic a good, bad, or other thing for young grapplers?

    First off, I'm a white belt with approximately 1 year of experience. I've only had the luxury of live, in-the-flesh, qualified instruction for maybe 1/3rd of my time in BJJ. That means that I've learned most of my techniques from books, DVDs, and the internet.

    My favorite subs include triangles from rubber guard, reverse triangles, the North-South choke (the Monson one), and lots of head-and-arm chokes (brabo/anaconda/d'arce/etc).

    My learning process included reading/viewing 1-2 technique(s) online or on a dvd or in a book, and then experimenting on an unresisting partner. I go through the motions 10 or 12 times, and then ask my partner to add progressive resistence. I solicit feedback from my partner until I'm confident that I am actually applying the technique properly. This how I've self-taught all of my favorite subs.

    The guy I did most of my training with this summer is also white belt, and the subs he gets on me are generally Kimuras, Guillotines, and Armbars, and RNC's (what I've heard called 'the basics').

    He always says, "Jordan, you should be focusing on the simple, basic techniques like me."

    I always respond, "But Dave, what makes my techniques any less basic or more complicated than yours? Once you understand how a technique works, and you can apply it on a resisting opponent, no matter which technique it is, isn't it a simple, basic technique at that point?"

    There are a few questions that I've been thinking about, now that I won't be training with Dave anymore:
    1. What makes a technique basic? What makes a technique exotic? Is it just a matter of popularity? Popularity among instructors? Is there a conspiracy to keep me from learning the D'arceconda?
    2. Am I hurting my game by working for exotic subs instead of basic subs? In the long run? In the short term?
    3. If I'm on top of half guard and Dave underhooks me, am I supposed to not wizzer that arm and start working for the D'arce because I'm pretty new to the sport?


    More experienced BJJ'ers: It 'exotic' good bad or other for the relatively inexperienced grappler? AKA: Please weigh in and tell what's wrong with my training priorities.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 8/03/2006 8:33am at .
    -Jordan
  2. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 8:11pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I suppose they're considered 'basics' because they carry a high percentage of success compared to the amount of time they need to be trained to achieve results, or something like that.
    Take the armbar. You have a lot of leeway. As long as you're not being completely retarded about it, armbars work even if you **** up a little. The same is not true with a lot of other subs.
  3. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 8:50pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've always been told that before you get to Blue Belt, make sure you have a "Basic" submission from every position.

    So long as you can pull these off AND pull off your fancy reverse gogoplata helicopter toe-lock...then I fail to see a problem.
  4. Gumby is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 9:11pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator
    LIST=1][*]What makes a technique basic? What makes a technique exotic? Is it just a matter of popularity? Popularity among instructors?
    A basic technique is one that is essential for learning many of the other complex techniques in jiu jitsu and that often can stem off into other more complex moves. For example, the elbow escape is a basic technique required should you want to teach someone how to say, do an armbar or a triangle from the guard. There are minute differences in the details, but your ability to manipulate your hips in the proper position is needed in order for you to understand how you get yourself in such a position to begin with. It is often your skill at basic techniques that determines just how skillfull the rest of your techniques are. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, you know?




    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator
    [*]Am I hurting my game by working for exotic subs instead of basic subs? In the long run? In the short term??
    Exotic is not the same as complex- exotic simply means that its not as popular. In that respect, it is often people who can introduce a new game at the tournament that can go far. Tournament play is all about whos on top of their game. You analyze your game and your opponents. Most people are familiar with basic techniques and attacks, such as spider guards, armbars, and triangles. Having an exotic game is like throwing a curve ball at your competition. Having a tight tournament game is how you can manage to beat people who have better jiu jitsu than yourself.

    What hes calling basic subs are appropriately called that not because theyre basic but rather because theyre so popular. There are so many details I could go in to right now about the armbar, kimura, and triangle that will make them be FAR from basic techniques. Use the definition I gave before about what it means to be a basic technique. If your working those basic techniques that are drilling your hip position, base, and balance, than it may very well work out quite well that youre playing an exotic game. If your exotic game is being used to cover up basic flaws in your game, then you need to address that.

    Food for thought- types of games come and go throughout tournament play. Some are so old that they can become new (for example, if someone entered a tournament with a dangerous X choke and scissor sweep combo, he would go far)



    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator
    [*]If I'm on top of half guard and Dave underhooks me, am I supposed to not wizzer that arm and start working for the D'arce because I'm pretty new to the sport?

    If your opponent manages to get underhooks from half guard, a whizzer is a good way to prevent him from going to your back. You made the mistake that let him get that position, so you have to start going backwards, since your weight is now probably too high on him. If your training in gi, a good counter to this is to make a deep grip on your opponents back and keep him close and his back on the ground.


    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator
    More experienced BJJ'ers: It 'exotic' good bad or other for the relatively inexperienced grappler? AKA: Please weigh in and tell what's wrong with my training priorities.
    Exotic is good- its people who go to tournaments and play exotic games that start the craze. For example, rubber guard, de la riva guard, pe de panos upside down guard, etc. If you found an angle to work in your jiu jitsu, by all means work it.
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 9:14pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are focused on submissions. The quick and easy route.

    The real stuff is found in the transitions. Usually transitions from basic to basic. It sounds to me like you are a bit gimmicky and trying to accomplish advanced techniques without a solid foundation nor the transitions to make them work. You will be hard pressed to do any gimmicks against someone of greater skill than white belt because you simply won't have the tools neccessary.

    The other problems you have are not training enough with qualified instructors, and not rolling with more advanced people. Picking up a technique out of a book and putting it on a white belt isn't that tough. Having an instructor analyze your game and continually make corrections to bad habits that can become difficult to break while adding the techniques neccessary to plug the holes in your game based on HIS experience and observations is critical to your progress.

    For example: My top game is that of a tough purple belt. But my bottom game, especially my half guard, is that of a weak purple belt. Heck it might have devolved down to blue belt level. My transitions from sidecontrol are tight, and my taking the back is getting scary. But sweeps, armdrags, and reversals are lacking. I continually ask for feedback from my peers and instructors and try to test the progress through competition. These are things I cannot get from a book or video.
  6. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 9:46pm

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     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to completely ignore what submissions you like to do because I have more important questions for you.

    How good are your elbow/knee and upa escapes?

    How well can you escape from side control? North-south? Knee-on-belly? Mount? Rear mount?

    What if they are holding the positions different ways (e.g. high versus grapevined mount; head-and-arm side control versus 100 kilos)?

    Can you escape head locks, standing and on the ground? Scarf hold escapes?

    How are your escapes, defenses and counters to guillotines? RNC? Americanas? Collar chokes? Armbars? Kimuras? Triangles? Omoplatas?

    What about from different positions (e.g. armbar from guard versus armbar from mount)?

    How is your base and posture in guard?

    Can you open closed guard?

    Can you pass the guard with deliberate pressure and control?

    Can you defend and counter guard passes? How is your guard retention?

    Can you hold side control? Mount? Rear mount? Can you hold each more than one way?

    How do you know you can do these? Who did you test yourself against?
    Last edited by Aesopian; 8/02/2006 9:52pm at .
  7. theraydiator is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 10:14pm

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     Style: no gi bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yrkoon, you make a good point. I honestly I think I need to train with more people, and better people before it makes sense to try to address any of this.

    I have a month ahead of me with no jiu-jitsu, and after that I'm planning on getting to a school with many more experienced people. Getting tooled over there for a while will probably answer my questions, and yours Aesopian.

    Regarding what I've learned: without someone planning it out for me, it's tough to know what I'm supposed to work on next. It's also a lot easier to find instructions for popular subs and guard passes than it is for escapes. Plus, in my experience people don't like to drill so much if there's no instructor.

    For me at least, I just need to get to a school with more people.
    -Jordan
  8. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2006 10:48pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    I'm going to completely ignore what submissions you like to do because I have more important questions for you.
    Was just thinking the same thing. Priority is a bit off for a white belt. The subs will never come against anyone with experience without the defense and basic positional control first.

    Although the other posts are good as well!

    :tinfoil:
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  9. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 2:32am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Position before submission. Try rolling without subs, work on transitions when you get in a superior position.
  10. Moleculo is offline
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    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2006 2:57am

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     Style: MT/SUB GRAPPLING

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To honestly answer Aeso's questions is to realize and admit the vulnerabilities in one's game.

    Good stuff.
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