Thread: Staying on the ground
7/16/2003 4:26pm, #1
To begin….I do not want this to become a ‘BJJ sucks for self-defense’ or ‘strikers can’t fight on the ground’ thread.
I have a serious question that I’d like those of you who have more experience than me in grappling to answer.
I believe that BJJ is a very effective means of fighting on the ground. However, it seems that in order to fight on the ground for any length of time, both parties need to want to stay on the ground. For example, I’m 5’11’’, 225 pounds, pretty strong and pretty fast for my size. In my experience, I’m pretty hard to take down to the ground. However, assuming I get taken down, how do you grapplers deal with the fact that I’m gonna fight like hell to get back on my feet? Do you think that in the few seconds we are both on the ground, with me throwing as many punches as I can get off, you can get into position to execute a choke or arm bar or other technique? Keep in mind that I’m doing EVERYTHING I can to get up: bite, eye gouge, pinch, etc. If a 225 pound man REALLY wants to get off the ground, can you stop him without opening yourself up to getting pummeled?
I guess what I’m really asking is: What type of techniques would a grappler use to keep a quick, strong opponent on the ground if that opponent REALLY wants to get up?
Thanks in advance.
7/16/2003 4:42pm, #2
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7/16/2003 11:55pm, #3
It is pretty simple to keep someone on the ground, especially if they are not trained to fight there or less trained then you. There is nothing stopping me from biting and gouging as well from a superior position.
7/17/2003 12:55am, #4
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biting and pitching complicates things, but essentially it's the struggling for the dominant positions that counts, as long as I could get into a mount or backmount or even a guard then I think I have a good advantage in terms of position, after that it's all a matter of either going for strike victory or joint lock or a choke victory, it's probably best to catch you with a rear naked choke tucking my head into your back so you can't elbow back or headbutt me, while securing my hold with a figure 4 (pretty much crossing my legs across your stomach but tucking my right foot behind my left knee), and u are right, gouging pinching and biting do make a grapplers life alot harder, but despite this their fundamental positioning and manuevering knowledge is always helpful on the ground, what's to prevent them from gouging, pinching, and biting you? from a better position to do it no less
Edited by - panda on July 17 2003 00:56:42
7/17/2003 1:00am, #5
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and a good grappler always secures a POSITION before going for a finishing move like a choke or joint lock...unless u r rumina sato then u can do whatever u want i guess...
7/17/2003 2:58am, #6
Panda owns this thread, no more to say really.
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7/17/2003 3:45am, #7
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Since when has somebody throwing punches stopped a grappler? It's a lot easier for you to keep someone on the ground than it is for them to get back up.
7/17/2003 4:27am, #8
This topic is just like anything else in MA or fighting, the person that knows more about what they are doing and can actually get it done will come out on top. Just as it is pretty easy for a trained person to keep an untrained guy down, it equally easy for a properly trained person to get up when and inferiorly trained person tries to keep him down on the ground.
If you don't like to be on the ground you better train enough takedown defense and escape work to make sure you don't end up there and you can get out if you do.
It won't save you against a NCAA All-American wrestler or some pissed off memeber of the Gracie clan, but lucky for us most people don't know what the hell they are doing, so they are unlikely to be able to keep you there if you want to get up and you know how to do it.
I generally don't like using pro MMA fighters as examples, mainly because their all so good that only a small percentage of us will ever approach their level, but look a Chuck Lidell. He alaways seemed to be able to get up when he wanted to. Too bad Courture, seemed more than ready for him after he did.
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7/17/2003 6:27am, #9
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I could put the most basic judo hold on you, and you probably wouldn't have any chance to get up. You can start biting my arm, pinching me, or whatever, but then i'll start pushing my fingers up your nose.
Basically if you let somebody get a dominant position on you in a grapple then you're screwed unless you know how to get out... and that shouldn't be easy.
7/17/2003 7:35am, #10
Thanks for the replies.
I don't disagree with anything you guys have said. I do think that getting a "dominant" position is tough if the guy is realitively skilled in fighting and wants no part of being on the ground. And I also understand that those dirty little tricks (biting, eye gouging, pinching) are also available for grapplers. But, can a good grappler secure a dominant position with a finger in his eye? Remember, these dirty tricks have the SOLE purpose of distracting you long enough for me to get the hell up.
I also think that the majority of getting a dominant position depends on HOW you hit the ground. If I'm fighting to not go down, but feel like I'm gonna lose that fight, I'm gonna try like hell to go down in a manner that doesn't leave me completely screwed. I do understand that if you shoot on somebody, and can get them right on their back, they are most definitely fucked. But against a decent trained fighter, that should not be so easy.