Alsothe fact that they are t3h Gh3y.
Pink and Green, what where they thinking?
Could it possibly be because Pink and Green don't have the same connotation in Korean culture that they do in western cultures? Hmm, perhaps.
Also, fans aren't that difficult to use as weapons. There are a great deal of techniques that involve keeping the fan closed. Of course at this point it becomes basically a club. Combine that with a sharpened tip, and it's fairly easy to use. That still doesn't make it practical in today's culture. How many people carry a strong metal ribbed, bladed fan around? KSW has a number of weapons that are learned simply for historical significance, and that's it. Why else does anyone learn sword and such.
Right, I've heard this one before. & I still think its bullshit. Several questions,(Enter key is stuck so you have to bear with me 1) I hear that (from a Kuk Sool bloke no less) that the fans Originated when Kuk Sool was originated hundreds of years ago (despite the creator of the art still being alive) whats your take on this? 2) A KSW guy claims that bladed fans where used as consealed weapons because warrior classes where frowned upon, ehhhhhh. right so a pink fluffy fan with SPIKES coming out of the end didn't look like a weapon? 3) Why pink and green? I've heard people (Another KSW Guy) say that it's to get attention, but surely a more eye catching colour would be more appropriote, like Red. 4) Did you see the European championship/ demonstration a couple of months ago? I did, It was DIRE!!!!!!
Originally Posted by KSWolf
1) I've addressed the history of Kuk Sool earlier in this thread, but I'll rehash what I posted. Basically, Kuk Sool Won, was founded during a time when there was a lot of animosity toward the japanese because of the occupation that was so recent in their history. Like every Korean art from this period, the founders published a history that gave no credit to the japanese because of this. I find the "official" history dubious at best, but it doesn't effect what I learn so I just ignore it.
2) Bladed fans were concealed weapons. I know of the ones used by the female royal court guards, but they were used by males as well. DerAuslander and Miguksaram could elaborate more on this as they're knowledge of Korean history is better than mine.
3) As for the pink, I believe one reason is that the national flower of Korea, Mugunghwa or Rose of Sharon (which is in the Kuk Sool Won logo) is a pink flower. And, like it or not Colors do not have the same connotations in other cultures.
4) No I did not see the European Championships as I live in the states. I'm sure I would have enjoyed it though. What did you find wrong with it.
Also, as I'm curious, what is your MA background? I'll better be able to understand your perspective this way.
Last edited by Wolf; 8/08/2006 9:37am at .
But why are the fans fluffy? Can you please explain thier fluffiness?
I don't have a reason for the feathers. Sorry.
KSWolf, in my personal experience I have seen or heard NOTHING good about Kuk Sool Won. Perhaps you can change my perspective.
I have 2 friends who are both KSW stylists, niether of these 2 use the Internet, they don't know eachother and go to 2 completely different schools.
The first has been doing KSW since he was a kid, though he gave it up last year. After getting his 1st Degree Black Belt (at 16 no less) for a year he decided to quit because, as he put it "It's nothing by hairy-fairy nonsense which you can't use anyway".
The other friend, who I will focus on, has just gotten into KSW and has been practicing it for about 9 months. It's his first MA and he dedicates himself completely to it.
The amount of stuff/bullshit he comes out with is maddening, he's constantly telling me how KSW is the ultimate Martial Art because it combines the best elements of every other MA.
He reminds me that im wasting time doing Karate, as after a number of years he will be able to dominate a Karate practitioner with ease.
He always lectures me about KSW's long extensive "history" and lineage.
He tells me how KSW practitioners don't win every tournament because alot of KSW techniques are too dangerous and are thus prohibited.
Essentially, he displays all the stereotypical traits that i've read about KSW stylists.
I thought this was probably just him, but after speaking to my ex-BB KSW friend he told me that was the general attitude of most KSW schools and practitioners. They alienate other MA and put themselves on a pedestal, clearly shown in how they forbid cross training, he told me he was looking into crosstraining but was threatened to have his KSW license revoked.
Now, the other friend invited me and my training partner over to the school he trains at, though he warned us that we must act as if we are not Karate students and have no previous MA knowledge, he was deadly serious about this and made me swear I would cooperate to avoid him being kicked from the school. This confused me, but he told me it's because the KSW instructor is rather suspicious because they've had other MAists show up only to 'attempt to steal the techniques which make KSW so "original and effective" and take them back to their own clubs' (direct quote). We never made it there however, he called it off the day we were ready to head down there, convenient.
This kind of paranoid and downright cultish behaviour is worrying. My ex-BB KSW friend told me that again, this is not a local case, most KSW schools and instructors are like this and was another big reason why he left. He told me how they also show alot of cult-like activities during the lessons, such as bowing to the KSW insignia and to a picture of the KSW founder, as well as their general xenophobic attitude toward any other MA - even other KMAs.
Now, all cult business aside, it doesn't help the fact that from what i've seen of KSW as an MA itself, is completely diabolical.
My KSW friend came to our Karate dojo once. He could barely handle the high impact routine we do and the heavy fitness, despite how much he used to brag about how ultra-fit KSW practitioners generally are because training the MA itself (not sparring, the basics and forms) is one giant full workout. He often said we were "Totally insane" for doing this kind of exercise, even though the workout we do isn't over-the-top difficult.
He demonstrated some of his basics and they were terrible. His punches had no power at all, his kicks were completely uncontrolled, his blocks were slow and very close to his body and his stances were very wide (mostly horse) and easily knocked off balance.
His Forms were a joke. There wasn't an ounce of power in anything he did, not even the striking techniques. He used about 10+ kiais in each form and each were barely a soft "Huuppp", the kind that construction workers make when lifting a heavy object. He told me that KSW forms were very different from Karate and work like Kung Fu forms only faster, yet there was no fluidity in him, he was as rigid as a robot. It looked more like figurative dancing than anything that could be described as a MA.
The sparring was appauling. We readied ourselves barehanded, while he put on full padding - Gloves, Elbows, Shins, Chest, Head and Mouth. His stance was side on, with one arm up with the fist near the side of the head and the other low, the fist covering the knee. Leaving his entire mid section and face totally exposed. Again, the "fluidity" that he mentioned in KSW was non existent, his punches were slow and rigid, his kicks were even worse. Our Sensei stopped the match early and told him to keep his guard forwards since he was an open target. This was the reason he came to our dojo in the first place, to get some sparring practice for the European Exhibition coming up.
Now, he had been doing KSW for almost the same amount of time we had been doing Karate, yet he was way below our level on almost everything. He gave me the same tired excuse i've seen online and from my other ex-BB friend.
"Kuk Sool Won has a long complicated curriculum, unlike Karate which is really simple, so it will take me alot longer to master, but it's better in the long run because I can counter anything you can do."
If this isn't bullshido at it's finest I don't know what is.
Now, the European Championship Exhibition that Ryu mentioned. I was there, my friend's school was there so I went to support him. DIRE is being too generous, it was atrocious. I thought maybe it was a one off, maybe if I see other KSW schools from the UK and Europe then it was probably just his school. Christ, I was wrong.
The Grandmaster entered (the guy in the Hugh Hefner pyjamas) and everyone turned to bow to him, they turned to remain constantly facing him as he walked around, they essentially treated him like a God or something. After a good 10 minutes of bowing to multiple flags and instructors it began. My friend was in the lower belts division.
The forms competition was just as bad as my friend was, there were several who performed much worse than him it was unbelievable. Noone had any power, no kiais were of any volume, everyone moved like bricks, also it didnt help the case that alot were GROSSLY OVERWEIGHT.
The sparring competitons were also a joke. They used NO CONTACT, FULL PADDING, POINT-STOP SPARRING as a fucking European Championship Tournament.
My friend did indeed keep his guard in front, though he kept it far too low and took 5 "punches" to the head and was defeated in the first round.
I spoke to him afterwards, he hadn't even broken a sweat, he told me he was never using "That useless Karate stance" again.
We stayed and watched the higher grades, it was again, atrocious! Despite them having years more experience than my friend they were just barely much better. He told me again, it was due to the extensive curriculum, 'so a brown belt might not look impressive, but he has to learn alot more than a Karate brown belt' - wtf?
Like the lower grades, most were horribly controlled and out of shape, only they could do different kinds of fancy dance moves.
Now, the demonstration itself was nothing short of a joke and a travesty. They showed numerous "Self Defence" manouvers which had no practical application whatsoever and made me reaslise what my ex-BB KSW friend meant and why he quit. Seriously, who the hell grabs BOTH WRISTS from behind? Then to top it off, the guy gets out of it by turning and flipping the attacker with one wrist onto the floor, LARPing at it's best. This wasn't even the most ridiculous example.
The weapons forms, especially the swordwork, looked like they'd been taken directly out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Just as with the empty hand forms, there was NO POWER whatsoever and an average of 1 "kiai" per 3 movements.
The fans, oh Jesus, I won't bother commenting on what hasn't already been said. My friend however, fed me the same bullshit story about how the fans were brightly coloured to "distract" the enemies attention and they date back to the ancient female bodyguard, blah blah etc. My ex-BB friend told me the same, only he confirmed that it was total nonsense and they could never be used in any practical way.
The "Breaking" was another complete joke. The boards looked like compressed sawdust, judging from how they broke, they were definitely tampered or brittle especially considering how little effort the demonstrators put into it and from observing the earlier part of the exhibition.
When they broke the cinderblocks I almost choked. The guy doing it wasted about 5 minutes doing all this breathing and kiai nonsense (I guess to was to gather his chi, or to built suspense among the captivated audience, take your pick) he brung his knife hand down at a similar speed you would if you had paint on your finger and were writing the letter "I" on a wall. Obviously, it didn't break.
After seeing the Tournament I honestly couldn't believe my friend was seriously preaching this **** as "The best martial art in the world". Yet he was deadly serious. He told me alot of people have a negative attitude about KSW because 'they have never taken it before, you have to practice KSW to fully appreciate what it's capable of'
Then there is the price tag. The ex-BB KSW friend had to pay £150 for his exam and another £150 for his Generals uniform that he never wore. He had to pay in monthly deposits whether he wanted to or not, he had a 3 month notice to cancel as well, meaning he had to pay for an extra 2 months even if he had stopped going.
From what i've seen, Kuk Sool Won is clearly the most blatant example of Bullshido and McDojo there is. It exists only to lure in and brainwash innocent people who are looking to get into a MA, filling their head with so much bullshit that they start to seriously believe it.
Perhaps myself and everyone who doesn't do KSW is wrong and my friend is right about it being the Ultimate MA, if you can change my mind with any videos or words then by all means.
I've addressed pretty much everything you posted earlier in this thread. I haven't the time to repost it all. What seems like nonsense to you, isn't nonsense to others. If you haven't got the time to read a thread before posting in it, I'm not going to take the time to answer your questions.
edit: upon further review of your post...
Yes, we do the bowing to the insignia and senior instructors and a pic of our founder. This is hardly uncommon in traditional arts. It sounds like the student who came to your school was terrible. There are plenty of terrible students in KSW as there are in a lot of arts. As far as the xenophobic attitude, this is something I have never, EVER seen in any of the schools I've been to or in the instructors I've met. The rest of your post is covered earlier in this thread. Please read the thread, then post any further questions that aren't covered.
Last edited by Wolf; 8/08/2006 11:06am at .
Please explain to me why my friend, his school, the other students participating, the senior belts and instructors at the European Exhibition all looked like they rehearsing for a Kung Fu flick
Hi all, first time here. So, about KSW
Well, I didn't read all the posts, but I think I can summerize most of them as, "KSW is another sketchy korean martial art, pretty much the same as Hapkido".
I gotta say, I definitely do NOT agree. I've been training and teaching in KSW for just about 10 years. There's no point in debating the entire martial art in one post, so if anybody here has any specific questions or disagreements I'll answer those to the best of my ability.
Kuk Sool Won is not Hapkido. Nor is it an off shoot. While at the lower levels, the joint manipulation and throwing are similar, it is organized differently, and are quite different at the higher levels.
I was trained in the USA and in Korea. Some Hapkido schools and KSW schools share the same dojo's, but have different curriculum. Also, the Hapkido instructors (or at least the ones in Seoul) often switch over to KSW after their 5 or 6th Dan because the KSW curriculum goes beyond Hapkido's. If anyone wants to discuss KSW history Korean martial arts politics. I'm all down for that. It's an interesting and convaluted topic.
Now, how about KSW's effectiveness? I can't speak for others but i can tell you that I've crossed trained with Shaolin, TKD, Kali, Karate, Judo, etc. At the very least I've held my own against very good fighters. My one and only compaint about ksw is that it tries to do too much in living up to its title as the Korean National Martial Art (which was established by the South Korean Government, not KSW). Many masters either specialize in one side of KSW or become a jack of all trades. But the ones who have taken it upon themselves to develop all sides (or learned from Kuk Sah Nym) are sick.
taking all comers