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  1. Lane is offline
    Lane's Avatar

    Ex-ninja

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2006 3:18am


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most cultures probably had some form of wrestling and empty-hand fighting, as well as fighting with traditional weapons. However, given the historical treatment of Native Americans, there probably really isn't a surviving strain of it, nor any historical records. When the necessity for training warriors vanished, then no more young Native Americans would be taught.

    And if it is, it's probably taught only within the tribes.
    --
    L.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2006 5:52am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a lot of wishful thinking and outright Bullshido associated with Native American martial arts.

    Harley Reagan is definitely not to be taken seriously - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Reagan

    The EJMAS website has a list of links to sites recording legitimate (historical) forms of wrestling, archery etc. practiced by various tribes. I've never seen anything on modern Native American MAs that have a verifiable lineage, unfortunately.

    I have seen several sources that state that the sport of lacrosse originally had a system of specific wrestling throws and body checks and that it was used in training warriors.

    Other info., take it all with a grain of salt:

    "Inikte" - does not claim to be an authentic traditional style, it's modern eclectic MA with a Native theme - http://www.inikte.com/history.htm

    Randall Brown's stuff, combining tracking/wilderness survival and unarmed combat - http://www.akumu.com/inphoto.html

    Adrian Roman, who claims to teach authentic techniques combined with modern refinements - http://www.tushkahoma.com/ . I've heard some good things about his knife fighting but again, don't know how "legitimate" it is in terms of history/lineage.
  3. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 8:50am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There were a lot of games played by Native North Americans to develop their prowess in battle, but from a strictly martial arts only sense there were only a few.

    Archery,
    Wrestling,
    Lacross, (Todays sport, was a training method as well as a battle)
    Spear.

    Also add that the Aztecs had wooden swords with obsidian used to create an edge.

    Indian Arm Wrestling, was very similar to modern arm wrestling except standing and has survived through to today pretty much intact.

    Here is an unsourced site, but I remember these called by these names as a kid. The word Indian seems to have been dropped as its no longer PC.
    http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1391513
    Indian wrestling is a time-honored tradition among many Native American peoples, signs of rites of passage, excellent for training and competition, and in general, a lot of fun.

    Nobody knows exactly where any of the specific wrestling practices amongst Native Americans began, but they were first noted in the 1500s by Spanish explorers, who noted that they never fought Greco-Roman style, but instead pitted specific body parts against one another. A full tournament involved many different matches, and was a true test of strength and stamina.

    The most common form of Indian wrestling is Indian leg wrestling.

    To play, both contestants lie down on their backs side by side in opposite directions, with their feet at their opponent's head. The players count off to 3, lifting their leg closest to the opponent each time. When they reach 3, they cross their legs and intertwine them, and begin to push against their opponent's leg, attempting to flip him or her over without moving the other parts of their body.

    Other forms of Indian wrestling include:

    * Indian arm wrestling - the same as what is commonly called arm wrestling, albeit standing up - the winner is the one who knocks the other player off his feet;
    * Indian back wrestling - the players stand face to face with their chests touching and arms outstretched and attempt to push each other back (with only their chests) a predetermined distance. Sometimes this is done with the players' hands tied behind their back.
    * Indian staff wrestling - the players both grab the end of a staff, and attempt to force the other player to let go of the staff.
    * Indian thumb wrestling - Yes, this is part of their tradition, too. It shows cunning and agility.
    * Indian balance wrestling - the toughest of all of the events. Each player stands on his right foot, left foot in the air. Using only his left foot, he attempts to force the other player to lose his balance or put his left foot on the ground. An extreme test of stamina.
    Last edited by Askari; 7/23/2006 9:37am at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 11:32am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any claims of Native American Martial Arts in this time and age MUST NEVER be taken seriously, specially if the practitioner is NOT an Amerindian and if he leads a whole bunch of non-Amerindian LARPErs in some sort of New Age Hippie Religion, peyote included.

    In this time and age, if there were still something resembling what the Amerindian did for MA (at least within the US or Canada), that would have been:

    1. Passed by word of mouth for quite a while
    2. Be in the reservations
    3. Had been hidden, specially when Native Americans were interned in the reservations, and
    4. Had been documented by now.

    Any Hippie now independent of race or background can get some chicken feathers, put some crayola marks over his face, swirl a home-made tomahawk and claim to be the great Poo-Poo of a secret Native American Martial Arts that has been hidden for decades and has only been passed by word of mouth to a selected few. If there is any claim of having teh r34l Tatanka-Fu, there is a 99.999999999999999999999999% chance that it's bullshit.

    Having said that, as was mentioned above, most likely your typical Amerindian MAs would have been forms of wrestling (that good **** is always universal), and weapons arts using bows and arrows, spears for throwing, long spears similar to sarissas, slings, and blunt weapons (clubs, axes and sword-like semi-blunt weapons).

    One interesting tool was the atlatl, the spear thrower. That was a nasty piece of **** that could help throw a spear with so much force that it could pass through the metal armor Spaniards used at the time.


    In Pre-Hispanic Peru (and the areas that fell under Incan rule), warriors used long spears for thrusting. Now, the interesting thing is that besides having a sharp point, they would put cactus leaves with 2" long spines. Now think about that for a moment. Even if you could not trust your spear point, the mere action of brushing it against your opponent would give a very nasty, prickly effect.

    I'd suspect (and I'm pulling that out of my ass) that tribes and nations back then developed their own MA-flavors like the Filipino did.

    Things to note:

    The Mexica or Aztecs didn't use war to capture territory or kill prisoners. They engaged in war to capture as many live prisoners as possible, for slavery, and primarily for ritual sacrifices and "live" soldier training. This style of warfare is unique and unparallel in the world, and it was euphemistically called "the flowery wars". Pretty much a ghay name if you ask me, but the outcome was always bloody.

    Military ranks and promotions depended on how many live prisoners a warrior had captured - a warrior that captured past a given quota were automatically promoted to one of two warrior/knight order, the Eagle or the Jaguar orders.


    I would surmize that if the main objective was to capture as many live prisoners as possible (without getting killed), Aztecs must have developed some sort of restraining techniques as well. The truth and details of that will never be known since most Aztec codices and texts of the time were destroyed.

    Anything else would be pure hippie new age bullshit.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 11:43am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi El Macho,

    Though I am about to mix my Inuit with your Aztec and Peruvians (who likely never saw each other anyway).

    Check out some of the games played during the Arctic Winter Games:

    http://www.awg.ca/

    Not hard to see the martial applications to a number of these. I remember a lot of native kids playing these types of games when I was a kid, as well as the stand up style grip wrestling games. But then again depends on the school you went to, there were a lot of reserve kids at my high school.

    Think about how European kids games and songs get passed along, no one remembers when they learned Hide and Go Seek or Ring around the Rosy (reference to the black death).

    Lacross may be the major modern derivitive of all of these.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  6. DJR is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 4:39pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Torch
    I've never seen any American Indian styles. I have no doubt they had them, but can anyone clue me in to what they were like? Do they still teach them? Much appreciated.
    Hapkido, of course! Haven't you seen Billy Jack?

    [MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwCZt6jEnJg[/MEDIA]

    In all seriousness though, I grew up around a lot of native guys, had a native roomate for year and currently live in a neighbourhood with a very large native population, and I've never heard anyone mention any native MAs in this part of Canada, anyhow (BC).

    There's a native youth boxing club in my neighbourhood though, and I've seen native guys training at kickboxing clubs in this part of town. When I've seen fights go down involving native youth around here, they seem to follow the apparently global and timeless strategy of trying to get the other guy on the ground and kick him repeatedly. Got woken up by one of those scenarios outside my building a few weeks ago, unforunately...
  7. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 6:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The most common form of Indian wrestling is Indian leg wrestling.

    To play, both contestants lie down on their backs side by side in opposite directions, with their feet at their opponent's head. The players count off to 3, lifting their leg closest to the opponent each time. When they reach 3, they cross their legs and intertwine them, and begin to push against their opponent's leg, attempting to flip him or her over without moving the other parts of their body.
    Holy ****, native americans invented the guard.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  8. OZZ is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 7:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Short Fist Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember somebody teaching me 'Indian Leg Wrestling' when I was quite young..around 9 or 10.
    There is a scene in the movie "Brotherhood of the Wolf" where some native guys fight using MA in a makeshift 'cage' made of wood.
    So, according to the film, Natives created Cage fighting as well..who would have thought?
    Interesting post El Macho.
    " If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
  9. Method2Madness is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 8:38pm


     Style: BJJ and MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have never heard of a systemized native american martial art. Native Americans like other tribal cultures through out history probably had wrestling as a martial art. I dont think there was a great deal of weapons training other than using hunting tools as weapons.
  10. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2006 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I saw some native american fighting last night. Basically, Bas Rutten beating the **** outa a native american. Is that what we're looking for here?
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
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