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  1. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 3:03pm

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You misread me, Santo. I said BigRod's statement is bullshit, because it goes against physics. By no means am I saying physics is bullshit, LOL!


    Flame on.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  2. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 3:20pm

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What the hell are you saying? I don't even know anymore.

    You go and bash people for being ignorant, but then you make no attempt to enlighten anyone. You don't try to prove your point, you just tell others they are wrong with little or no explanation.

    You it's highly dependent on what type of kick you are throwing, and then never give a decent example of ONE kick that does what you are talking about or a single situtation where it might be applicable. You say "xyz can be easily tested" but then never bother to say how.

    BigRod is making excellent posts, mainly because they are clear, concise, and I can understand what the hell he talking about so I can then decide whether or not I agree with him. The only thing I get from your posts are "You guys are wrong".

    Like I said, I watched the fight clips here on the site for anything that looked like what I think you are talking about. I used the site's clips because they are available tpo everyone here, and we all could look at the same thing. I looked people moving dynamically in combat to see if I could try to see your point of view and find I kick were someone is doing something close to what you are saying. I couldn't find it.

    So what are you talking about. Instead of calling people names, may be you should try to explain your point.





    <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>
  3. Fisting Kittens is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 5:11pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OMG Gong sau they are willfully blind and not even trying to understand what you are saying.

    Guys, you are talking about a static situation, WE are talking about a dynamic situation. Case in point with the demo I was talking about.

    one of you numbnuts was saying that the weight distribution has to change during the kick. Not so. If 15% of your weight is on the back leg and you launch into a sliding invert kick then the weight follows as such: 85% on the ground. then that 85% moving in a forward vector. followed by 85% being supported by contact with the target, followed by falling into 85% on the ground again. At no time during this sliding kick is more than 15% of your weight on the back leg. the distribution stays the same.

    Whatever, I don't really feel like clarifying anymore. keep up the good work gong sau.


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  4. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 5:17pm

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've explained my point several times now, from different perspectives, too. I'm getting sick of it. I put it very simply in one of my previous posts: if your COG is not directly above your "posting" foot, there will be less than 100% of your mass on the posted foot. This means you are falling in the plane that your COG and post are on (into the target).

    As for the experiment: Get a scale, preferrably a digital one with a fast response time. Place a riser on the floor next to the scale. The top of the riser should be level with the top of the scale. Stand with one foot on the scale and one on the riser, positioning yourself so that your COG is between the scale and the riser with 50/50 weight distribution. Now, pick up the foot on the riser, being careful not to push off too much (otherwise, we'd be measuring the force created by the push, and not the mass "seen" by the scale). The scale should not read your full mass, and will quickly drop off as you fall farther away.

    As for the name calling, I ragged on Crim 'cause this falls within his area of expertise. I ragged on you for saying BigRod was showing major brainpower. In those two cases, it was just ribbing. I did not throw insults. Where I did throw insults was at BigRod, because of his "even you" comment, which is an implied/veiled insult, and pissed me off. Which reminds me, teh "Newton" comment I made was badly worded. I should have written, ""Even I" (along with Newton and a whole branch of physics) CAN deny your statement, because it's bullshit. Also because he has done nothing but obtusely affirm the same thing over and over. He has in no way tried to refute what I'm saying by anything other than to keep yelling "100%! 100%! 100%!" Let me ask, where did you all learn this? Are you just pulling it out of the air?


    Flame on.
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    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  5. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 5:19pm

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, Fisting. Nice to know someone understands what I mean.


    Flame on.
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    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  6. bruceleeroy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 10:09pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    50/50
    but don't think you have to stick to that rule all the time. In a fight things change quickly and you will have to adapt.
  7. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 10:40pm

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're both talking dynamically. The only time that your body wouldn't register full weight is if you were accelerating your body upwards against gravity. Just because you're not falling downwards in something like your front-kick analogy is due to rotational torque around your supporting leg, not due to linear forces resisting gravity.

    What concerns me more is that everyone seems to think that it's weight or mass that influences how powerful your kicking is. It's POWER transfer. Energy that indicates breaking/damage. It doesn't matter how much of your weight is being supported on your leg, what matters is how much energy is in your "weapon".

    This seems to be degenerating to a namecalling match guys. Let's keep it civil, eh?

    And you're welcome to call my employer...I'm a Sales engineer now. I just gotta talk shop. :P Besides, most of what I do involves thermal transfer and expansion, not kinematics and dynamics. I'm sure we're all thankful for THAT. *GRIN*

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Good is the enemy of Great" - T-shirt seen on Queen Street, Toronto
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  8. Punisher is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2003 11:55pm

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     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    gong sau,

    I did the scale experiment. Acutally I did it earlier today before you suggested it. I then did it again making sure I was following your instructions.

    I stood in my bathroom with one foot of my scale and the other foot on a phone book. Tried different weight variations and tried different things like kicking out at away with my phone book leg or just simply bending at the knee quickly to pick my foot up. This is what I observered.

    In ALL cases as soon as my phone book foot left the phone book the reading on the scale INCREASED. My COG was between the phone book at the scale and I tried very had NOT to transfer weight on to the scale foot. I was falling down a lot but I never saw the scale read more than my weight so I don't think I was pushing off.

    Now in cases where I kicked the phone book leg way out and left it there, falling to that one side, I did observe a decrease in the reading of the scale as my COG moved farther away from the scale. This was AFTER the INCREASE. There was weight transfer to my support leg and then transfer away from it.

    I still don't know how this can be used in a fighting situation unless you opponent is on the ground and you are stomping on him. When you are falling your COG is primarily moving downward, not into your opponent.

    I'm still waiting for a step by step explaination on how a kick like you describe would be thrown and what situtation it might work in.

    Fisting Kittens gave it a try, but there were a few problems. First of all I don't know what a sliding inverse kick is. And as CrimsonTiger pointed out, his explaination of what was happening to the weight was flawed.

    This is something like I'm looking for.

    How to shift your weight to your rear leg and still move forward

    You are standing in a 50/50 stance and you want kick your opponent with a lead leg side kick.

    You momentarily shift most of your weight to your lead leg as your rear leg slides along the ground until is is approximately directly under your center of mass.

    When your rear leg reaches that position you transfer your weight to it as your lead leg moves up and out to deliver the kick.

    After the kick your kicking leg retracts and lands on the floor. Your weight is transfered back to it and the distribution is again 50-50 with your rear leg still approximately at the location that was originally below your center on mass and your new center of mass is moved forward the length of the sliding step.





    <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

    Edited by - Punisher on July 13 2003 23:57:37
  9. Dr_Santo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2003 12:05am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry gong sao for the misunderstood then heh.

    I agree with fisting and about what you mean, dynamic fight. But there is weight.

    Anyways...
  10. gong sau is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2003 6:44am

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Pun,

    Thanks for trying it for yourself. On reading your post, I realized a couple of things:

    1. The main thing that got me going was the 100% claim. But in my haste to explain things, I made the same mistake with absolutes by implying that none would be transferred. My bad.

    2. I'm not going to try to discount your results, but as I said, your weight shouldn't ever reach your full mass if gravity is the only force involved. It's simple force vectors. The mass on the supporting foot will increase, but not all the way to 100%. The farther the COG is from the supporting point, the less the mass will be (I think you'll agree this is true?). I apologize for any disingenuousness on my part, it was not intended.

    I'll write up a step-by-step for you a little later. Right now, I'm on my way to work.


    Flame on.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
    -Phrost
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