Posted On:7/12/2003 8:24am
"In practice that 85% (or a large part of) is going into the target. It is not on your rear leg. Where do you think the power in a falling step comes from? If all of your weight were on the back leg, then you'd be kicking with nothing but leg."
(1) When one leg is in the air, the other is supporting 100% of YOUR weight. Even you cannot deny this.
(2) During the course of a kick, especially with this "falling step" you talk about, your weight distribution will change. But at some moment during the kick, the above (1) is true.
(3) The power of the kick comes from the rotation of your hips. This true of all kicks and styles. You may choose your "falling step", or maybe just to set the leg down, or even bring it back to where it was, but that is all AFTER the delivery of the kick, and AFTER the power of the kick has been delivered.
Edited by - BigRod on July 12 2003 08:32:34
Posted On:7/12/2003 11:54am
Well im with the 50% 50% stand, and of course you have to change the weight when you move...
Seeker of Truth
Posted On:7/12/2003 12:43pm
Style: Five Animal Fighting
Look at the big brain on BigRod. He's said everything I wanted to say, and better I might add.
I am truely humbled, although it could be I am just tired. I spent most of last night reviewing almost all the clips here on Bullshido looking for one kick, just ONE, that resembled anything like what I envision gong sau is talking about. I could not find it. In all cases I say, the kicker had his support leg directly below his COG supporting all his weight.
MMA Phil has a good point, although I would add with knees it is alos common for the attacker to be leaning extremely forward. Why? Because he is in a clinch and now some portion of his weight is being shouldered by his opponent.
In this day and age martial artists are technique whores. Very few will stick to their old ways if something that can be proven to be better comes along. Many, many arts and artists arrive at approxiamately the same solution despite approaching the "problem" from different angles. The bottom line is, if what gong sau is suggesting was really advantageous more people would be doing it.
So there remains 4 possibilites.
1. What gong sau says is impossible.
2. What gong sau says is possible, but not really effective as normal kicking methods so it is not adopted by most arts or fighters.
3. What gong sau say is not only possible, but more effective and most arts and fighters are unaware to the superior method.
4. We are all really saying the same damn thing, but our shitty communication skills are getting in the way of understanding.
I favor #4. Of anyone can show me a clip of someone kicking without shifting their weight to their support leg, I might change my mind.
<marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>
RAAAAAAR! Fear the Tiger!
Posted On:7/12/2003 1:21pm
Style: Karate/Muay Thai
Some of us are using scientific concepts of "weight", others are using "weight", "momentum" and "energy" interchaneably (because they are all related, all based off mass).
Pun and BigRod are correct. You HAVE to be supporting 100% on one leg when you have the other up. Your legs and momentum may cause a kick, but it's not weight that causes damage...it's your opponent absorbing your kinetic energy. If you want, I could show you the energy absorbtion graphs of bone (as seen by engineers) but it's hard to show in ASCII text. ;P
Let's keep this simple...I do believe that FK's demo happened...but could he throw that in combat? While moving? Probably not. The same way your body can support a LOT of direct force, but you'd never be able to do that in a real situation.
Let's keep this realistic guys.
"Good is the enemy of Great" - T-shirt seen on Queen Street, Toronto
"Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
Posted On:7/12/2003 8:21pm
Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu
"4. We are all really saying the same damn thing, but our shitty communication skills are getting in the way of understanding."
my vote as well. what we are talking about is dynamic not static. gongsau's point regarding the futility of static classification the real point.as well this by Crimson Tiger
"Some of us are using scientific concepts of "weight", others are using "weight", "momentum" and "energy" interchaneably (because they are all related, all based off mass)."
i am primarily talking about energy or momentum.
in my system movement is continous once begun. a nonstop movement like that of walking is stressed. therefore 'stances' dont really 'appear' as static position. we use them to be sure but they are very temporary. it is more like playing music, considering each individual stance like a note of music. the continuous linking of 'stances' is what creates the movement.
this is actually a very well established concept/principle of CMA( for one) known as THE INTERPLAY OF MOVEMENT AND STILLNESS. stances are transitions in movement. when you hit, the 'stance' is there, but then instantly transforms into another 'stance' so that movement may continue. the moving root principle is another way of looking at this.
my english is so poor for such a subject, which is very difficult to understand, at times.
BigRod, excellent posts. what i am talking about are 'flat footers' with a base that is 'split' or too wide for easy movement. sometimes even those who use the smaller stances still have rather lifeless movement. it is about fluid mobility, especially the ability to pivot well, and multiple times, in sucession. the have control while performing radical direction changes. if a guy cant follow your footwork, he is definately outclassed.
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Edited by - kuntaokid on July 12 2003 20:26:02
Posted On:7/13/2003 7:37am
I think have to agree with Punisher as well about us mainly having communication issues.
Punisher, CrimsonTiger and KutaoKid, Kudos to you!
Posted On:7/13/2003 2:05pm
Style: Brazillian Kung Fu
First off, let me clarify something. A lot of you seem to be talking about roundhouses, to which what I am saying doesn't really apply. There are a few different reasons for this; one of the main ones being that throwing your body weight forward doesn't really do anything useful for a roundhouse. Linear kicks, on the other hand...
Crim, I'm highly disappointed in you. As a mechanical engineer, I would've expected you to see this truth. I might have to have a word with you employer on this one. :P
"You HAVE to be supporting 100% on one leg when you have the other up."
Once again, everyone seems to be thinking in static terms. If I want to stand on one leg, with no other support, OF COURSE 100% of my mass will be on that one foot. Dynamically, this is not necessarily true. It depends entirely on where on a vertical plane the COG is aligned wrt the supporting foot (of course, if your COG is not above the supporting foot, then you are falling - not necessarily a bad thing). The farther away your COG is from being directly above the supporting foot, the less mass will be on that foot. This can be proven quite easily by experimentation.
As for keeping this realistic, there is nothing in what I have said that cannot be done in actual combat. It is perfectly realistic.
Punisher, I never said it was the most effective way. But since we're on the subject, what is the most effective in a given situation? Is it the same in every situation? Does it apply equally to ALL techniques? What I am talking about has a pretty specific application, and cannot be used with all kicks in all situations (as with most things). Personally, I don't think that "most effective" necessarily applies to the few kicks one usually sees. In some cases, "lowest common denominator" applies much better. Oh, and I wouldn't be saying stuff like "Look a the big brain on BigRod." He's actually looking pretty ignorant just now.
BigRod, god you're dense. "Excellent posts!" Why? Is it because they're agreeing with you?
"I'm not talking about moving backwards, I'm talking about redistributing your weight. Big difference." No, there isn't a big difference. For all intents and purposes you ARE your COG. If it moves backwards, YOU are moving backwards. If you shift your COG back to rest over your rear foot while kicking (as many, if not most, kickers do), you are moving backwards.
"(1) When one leg is in the air, the other is supporting 100% of YOUR weight. Even you cannot deny this. "
"Even I" CAN deny this. Along with Newton and an entire field of physics, because it's BULLSHIT. Ass. Does everything in your world stay perfectly still for you, or what?
"(2) During the course of a kick, especially with this "falling step" you talk about, your weight distribution will change. But at some moment during the kick, the above (1) is true."
No, it isn't.
"(3) The power of the kick comes from the rotation of your hips. This true of all kicks and styles. You may choose your "falling step", or maybe just to set the leg down, or even bring it back to where it was, but that is all AFTER the delivery of the kick, and AFTER the power of the kick has been delivered."
Wrong again. The some of the power in a kick comes from the hips, not all. I'd say try again but you know, three strike rule and all.
Finally, we are most definitely NOT saying the same thing. As long as you guys keep on with the 100% crap, anyway. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on here, however.
"The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
Posted On:7/13/2003 2:27pm
Well, this is my 1st post in any of the forums, and I just had to dive in and take the first plunge! lol ShorinRyu stylist here.
We tend to keep a 50/50 stance to facilitate the easy forward, lateral or backward movement at any given movement in a fight. You jsut don't have time in a real fight, or sparring session, to shift taht weight around from front to rear when the fists/feet start flying.
To much weight placed on the back foot makes you (torso) immobile if someone charges at you and gets past your "lighter" front foot, while to much weight on your lead foot makes you also to stationary and leaning forward to much to get out of a persons way in a confrontation.
Now, a system like TKD will utilize a light front foot most of the time because they are primarily kickers and generally (gonna get some flak over these comments I'm sure) love to kick with that front foot as you come in, which ShorinRyu stylists LOVE to see! We have dozens and dozens of very effective techniques geared to getting past that lead "light foot" and then making a mess of the owner of it! lol
OK...that's my 2 cents worth. Enjoy! :o)
Posted On:7/13/2003 2:41pm
Just a quick comment about onme of yours BigRod
You said "(3) The power of the kick comes from the rotation of your hips. This true of all kicks and styles."
Well, in ShorinRyu, we DON'T rotate the hips when we kick, not the shoulders --- aka "leaning into a punch". Why you ask?
Think about it. sure, no argument out of me that leaning into a kick or punch transmits more power into you opponents body when you make contact. BUT...what if the guy moves? Or God forbid...you miss??? Then where are you? Sitting in a really awkward stance because you anticipated making contact, off balance, and VERY vulnerable. This is why we don't totally commit our entire body force to a technique, unles we are 110% sure it is going to strike your opponent!
Ever heard of body shifting, or change of body techniques? Many systems teach them, but I have NEVER (with the exception of ShorinRyu) see any style ever actually incorporate them into a sparring session.
Again, my 2 cents worth. :o)
Posted On:7/13/2003 2:50pm
Newton physics is bullshit?
Just because you read something in books or magazines it doesn't mean it's true i agree but
Unless you are in the field of phisics and doing experiments and published some backup theories or hypotesis, you can't just say all is "Bullshit".
And even so, the world we know as today its posible because of that "bullshit".
If you think you have it all figured out, why don't you give us something to back it up besides your words? Send a video with you kicking while someone monitors your weight in the back leg or something like that.
Meaby your technique is really good and we are all in a big mistake.
i support your thoughts about not having all the weight in the back leg 'cause i've been practicing TKD for 10 years, but i beleive there is "some" weight there, the thing is that if you push against the floor with your back leg, you can neutralize that weight and send it right into the direction of the kick.
Is that what you mean? or what?
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