Posted On:7/10/2003 8:20pm
Has anyone seen Arnis or Eskrima fights with bare hands?
Eskrima is very know for the sticks, but it can kick ass with the hand/feet technics. If anyone knows any movies that show that, please tell me.
I've studied Eskrima for a while and i found it more useful than the Wing Chun i do. Kinda like Thai Box but a little more complicated and effective. It has great locks and throws too.
If you're interested in training Eskrima or Kali or Arnis, be sure to ask if they show hand/feet technics.
Posted On:7/10/2003 10:09pm
I've been training in Silat for a few weeks now. Silat is similar to Kali, which my school also teaches. I chose to not take Kali because I wanted to learn empty hands. I figured I was much more likely to be empty handed than to have a stick. My instructor tried to explain to me that the same motions you use with a stick in Kali are the same ones you would use empty-handed. I just didn't get it, though.
Now, after taking Silat and doing the trapping and striking that goes along with the entries and follow-up, I can see the similarities. A few times, my instructor even showed me how the very same Silat blocking and striking motions would be done wit sticks in Kali.
Tonight, we worked mostly on entries and follow-ups. I struggled, because it is all so new to me. Now, I can definately see how a background in Kali sticks would make one MUCH more fluid when being empty-handed.
As for the movies, I have heard that Matt Damon used either Kali or Silat in "The Bourne Identity". JKDChick can probably confirm or deny this.
Oh, my instructor also showed me how the empty-handed Silat techniques would work with a knife. Man, it was so sick (in a good way) I almost wanted to puke. Geeze, talk about getting sliced up! If memory serves me correctly, there was a guy in the US who recently got arrested for killing 2-3 people with a knife in a bar fight. The news said the guy had had training in Kali. I don't doubt it.
Posted On:7/10/2003 10:56pm
FMA has good empty hands app's to the extent that they use headbutts,elbows,knees,and jointlocks.Like other Southeast-asain styles.One big problem is the over-emphasis on limb destruction.How could you possibly limb-destruct someone in the street,unless he was slower than ****?Of course,a guy can break his hand against your elbow,or he can break his shin against your knee.But those things happen due to correct shielding,not Filipino limb-destructions.I don't see why you would train to fight a guy who is as slow as Tubby Turtle and telegraphs his punches like they were from Western Union.How can anyone limb-destruct anyone with even marginal speed?
Posted On:7/11/2003 12:16am
How can anyone limb-destruct anyone with even marginal speed?
Very easily. The faster the flow, the worse the destruction.
"That baby better watch his mouth. I rape kids like him as part of my warm-up for raping teenagers, grown men, and eventually charging rhinos." - Boyd
Posted On:7/11/2003 12:35am
You are right, flashpoint111, you can't "grap" someone without him being the slowest.
But thats why eskrima (kali or silat) have all those punches and kicks and wlbows... because you use all that to "stun" your oponent first, and then you can act. You can't just grab someone and expect to fall. I't all about giving the right punch with the correct power in the right spot. I
don't know if you have ever seen eskrima on action but i've never seen no one telegraphing moves. It's all about sensitivity and reflexes, as all good fighting techniques.
About Rashomon, in the eskrima style i've studied for 3 years, we use the sticks (or canes) and also the hand techniques... and YES, you use the hand like sticks. That makes it easier to understand the principles. Also the knife techniques are like the stick's (we use a little stick, like 15 cm to work the thrusting and cuting) and very deadly.
Although, i agree, its easier to find your hand first than some sticks, but remember the sticks are just a tool for you to use whatever you have at hand; even a PEN (About BOURNE IDENTITY, yes, it is Kali).
Posted On:7/11/2003 11:05pm
my overal view of FMA is positive,especially in terms of the training methods.I just think there is a conceptual problem inherenet in FMA-they try to treat a kine like it is a stick,and a hand like it is a blade.The physics of hand-strikes, edge-weapons techniques,and stick are all different in terms of principles and applications----they are not interchangible,altho' some things can cross over into different areas.A horn is not played like a piano,and a flute is not played like a guitar.
Posted On:7/11/2003 11:09pm
No, but a French horn is played like a trumpet.
Posted On:7/11/2003 11:29pm
Style: MMA-Vale Tudo
I would agree eskrima is pritty good at stiking without stick/weapons over all.
Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
-Styles i train in-
Posted On:7/12/2003 12:01am
Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu
"Oh, my instructor also showed me how the empty-handed Silat techniques would work with a knife. Man, it was so sick (in a good way) I almost wanted to puke. Geeze, talk about getting sliced up!"
all silat movements are constructed or executed with stick and blade work in mind, although it does come from an empty handed base.
at least in my style, control of the opponent, often by compromising the spine is the objective. we have mucho limb destructions, but our preferred method is core control. this is a reflection of the empty hand base.
alot of FMA i have seen emphasizes limb destruction as a primary response in weapons combat. very smart way to fight, maintain/control distance and 'defang the snake', tipping the odds in your favor to a considerable extent. and its not they stop there.
these are generalizations, because indonesian and phillipino martial arts have obviously influenced each other, or have been influenced by the same outside, whatever. they are 'family' arts.
a more realistic look at limb destructions shows that they are merely the first link in a chain of movements. the gunt will immediately be followed up by more damaging attacks, quite a few in fact.
"How can anyone limb-destruct anyone with even marginal speed?"
you have much to learn, grasshopper.
it is a matter of timing, interceptive flow, and body positioning.
one component that may aid your visual is the definition of 'gunting'. it means scissors. often the open palm is used to 'gather' or 'guide' the attack into the elbow that is performing the limb destruction. that is why many kata of many styles have the 'slap the elbow' technique. those are limb destructions.
"The physics of hand-strikes, edge-weapons techniques,and stick are all different in terms of principles and applications----they are not interchangible,altho'...."
a weapon is an extension of the body. none of these things are different. i swing a hatchet all day, and if i hit you with a hatchet swing or a 'chop' strike, the EFFECT is different because of the WEAPON, but the MOVEMENT is the same. 'dropping the hammer' also helps me to 'drop the palm'. lol...i do hundreds of palm strikes everyday at work. not exactly the same, but dont think for an instant that they dont correlate or co-support each other.
i have a two and half foot pipe that i use as a baton for training. as well i have a sword of approx. the same size. the movements of the hands are the same for bare hands, sticks, or blades.
the best approach is to be 'bladed' at all times.
all weapons are treated as blades,and in empty hand practice, the attacker is always considered to be wielding weapon(s). we often pick up weapons to 'check' the empty hand technique. all techs are trained empty handed, with sticks,and blades. all 'defenses' are done vs. empty hands,sticks,and blades.
<marquee> INDONESIAN GUNG FU</marquee>
Posted On:7/12/2003 12:49am
make a gunting work in a live sparring match against someone with .08 hand-speed or better,than I will believe it.Of course,most karateka and tkd people punch so slow that my 101-y/o grandmama could do a limb destruction on them,but what's the point of that?
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